Vail Purchases Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass

[cdskier]

1) Eastern price increase down the road
2) $18 hamburgers and $20 parking.
3) Unbundled marked up everything.
4) Big day ticket rates scare off new entrants and last minute skiers

The cheap pass is the hook, not the entire product.

I ski at a resort that is not part of any corporate ski conglomerate. At least in the short term, Epic coming east has greatly benefited me from a cost perspective. My mountain dropped their pass prices due to needing to somewhat compete with Epic. If Epic never bought Stowe, I'd be paying significantly more for my pass at a non-Vail resort in VT. Let's cross the "eastern price increase down the road" bridge when we get to it. People so often say Vail will start to significantly increase Epic prices. IF they do that, they'll lose market-share. Then they lose ancillary revenue as well. I don't really see significant pass price increases as part of the Vail/Epic's business model.

As for the high priced food, either go somewhere else or bring your own food. I think prices on food are high at plenty of non-Vail resorts and that's why I don't often eat at the on-mountain venues.

The paid parking thing hasn't even happened and who knows if it even ever will in the east. IF it did, again, you have a choice to go elsewhere.

The big day ticket rates I agree are an issue, but they've been an industry wide issue that myself (and others) have been concerned about long before Vail came east. The entire industry is trying to shift people to pass products instead of day tickets. I do worry about that scaring off new entrants (although at the same time people have been saying that's a concern for years and yet it doesn't seem like we have any major lack of new people on mountains so perhaps new entrants are still finding ways to start to ski).

 

[BenedictGomez]

True...but they can't lock up any more of them without getting into anti-trust territory again. After they bought Keystone, Breck, and A-Basin, the DOJ forced them to sell A-Basin. So I wouldn't expect them to be able to buy Copper, Winter Park, Loveland or A-Basin even if they wanted to.

That was during the Clinton Administration; I'd give it a shot now were I Vail and I thought XYZ property was a strategic fit. I doubt it would be blocked as Republican administrations generally have a much higher bar for proving Monopoly status than Democrat administrations.

People so often say Vail will start to significantly increase Epic prices. IF they do that, they'll lose market-share. Then they lose ancillary revenue as well. I don't really see significant pass price increases as part of the Vail/Epic's business model.

Price increases for Epic pass will occur, I assure you with 100% certainty.

I even know when it will happen, it will occur precisely once Epic pass reaches market saturation / stasis. I say this with confidence because while I dont love everything Vail, I do realize they're being run by very intelligent people with savvy business acumen. As for loss of ancillary revenue, you'll never make more in ancillary revenue than you will from the holistic pass price increase, even accounting for your dropouts who refuse the slightly higher price.

 

[sull1102]

I've been to Europe numerous times. As a matter of fact, I was just pricing a ticket to Montenegro today. As an Italian citizen, I can assure you that I know a thing or two about flying to Europe.

You said:



Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are only bringing one checked bag. The cheapest ticket from Boston to London (seven night stay) for all of February is $486 on WOW Air. (Departing February 26th.) This includes one checked bag and no carry-on bag other than a briefcase or purse. With skis, the price goes to $612. That just gets you to London, mind you - but your plan has you transfer to Easyjet or Ryanair. If we use Easyjet for our example, you will pay another $137 USD for a flight to Zurich. If you have skis, your Easyjet ticket goes to $235.

So... using the absolute cheapest date for the entire month of February, the cheapest you can get to the Alps using your system - if you bring one checked bag, but no carry-on and no skis - is $623. If you want to avoid renting skis, the price goes to $847.

If you can't get to the Rockies for less than that, you are an absolute moron. Just the fact that you expected me to believe that a bag is free on a LCC across the Atlantic makes you a moron. Even Delta and other legacy carriers are now charging for a checked bag across the Atlantic. Compare that to Southwest offering up to two free bags here in the United States.

And let's not forget the downside to connecting to Ryanair or Easyjet. If your flight into London is delayed, they aren't going to care since your trip is not booked on a single ticket. And the layovers are almost always longer when you cobble together two separate tickets.

Before you spout off, you really ought to know what you are talking about.

You are wrong once again and now I'm not alone! You chose Wow Air on purpose to fit your narrative, good for you. Now go try again with Norwegian, like I told you to do in the first place. Oh and why London? Cause it fit the narrative again. You can fly from Providence to Dublin then get on Ryanair to Zurich, you could go Boston to Copenhagen then Innsbruck, or Munich, the list goes on. And the longest layover I had in Feb/March was 3hours, which is maybe an hour longer than you really should want. Try again bud

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[VTKilarney]

You are wrong once again and now I'm not alone! You chose Wow Air on purpose to fit your narrative, good for you. Now go try again with Norwegian, like I told you to do in the first place. Oh and why London? Cause it fit the narrative again. You can fly from Providence to Dublin then get on Ryanair to Zurich, you could go Boston to Copenhagen then Innsbruck, or Munich, the list goes on. And the longest layover I had in Feb/March was 3hours, which is maybe an hour longer than you really should want. Try again bud

Sure, "bud," since you don't feel the need to actually get data I will.

First, let start with the fact that you were completely and utterly wrong that checked bags on LCCs are free.

But let's play the game using your new routes, "bud."

Let's start with your proposal of Norwegian from Providence to Ireland. We will ignore the fact that everyone is waiting for Norwegian to go belly up and assume that you are comfortable with that risk. The cheapest flight is $283.10 Add $140 for a checked bag. Add even more for a second checked bag. So let's give you the benefit of the doubt and saw that you are traveling with just a carry-on and one checked bag with skis. You are up to $423 - but you are stuck in Dublin. With the onward flight you are easily over $550.

The cheapest fares from Boston to Copenhagen in February are $115 more than the fare from Providence to Ireland. So no luck there.

So, "bud," do you want to keep playing this game?

You are either the WORST shopper for airfare out west, or you need to stop doubling down on your fake news, which to remind the readers was:

because I would much rather save money and head back over to the Alps(it is cheaper to fly across the Atlantic than the Mississippi if you know where to look i.e. Norwegian. and then hop on Easyjet or RyanAir).

 

[VTKilarney]

One more data point. I am seeing all sorts of airfares in February from Boston to Denver in the $350 to $370 range. Assuming that you don't fly Southwest, even with the additional checked bag fee this is still cheaper than flying to the Alps.

Fares to Salt Lake City vary more, but the lowest fares are even cheaper than to Denver.

One thing I will give you (although you said that FLYING to the Alps is cheaper) is that it is easier to get away without a car in Europe. Although you were talking about flying into Munich and Zurich. I would still want a car if I flew into one of those cities (more so for Munich). If you fly into a city such as Innsbruck and don't rent a car, the airfares go up so there is no real savings.

And let's not forget the substantially greater travel time that you are if you go to the Alps. In many circumstances that will eat into the time on the slopes.

 

[Zermatt]

For the fourth year in a row we decided to go back to the most expensive country in the world because skiing there is so cheap.

For President's week in February:
Nonstop flight from NYC to Zurich, $445 (includes one checked bag per person)
9 Nights in a Zermatt apartment for four people(200 yards from the lift), 3,000 CHF
5 Full days kids' ski school including lunch, 550 CHF per kid
5 day ski pass, 360 CHF per adult (kids are free)
Roundtrip train from the airport to Zermatt for the entire family, 154 CHF per adult (kids are free)

 

[VTKilarney]

Enjoy! What do you do on the non-ski days?

I’m jealous of the airfares you can get out of New York. The cheapest nonstop I am seeing out of Boston is quite a bit more.

 

[Zermatt]

Enjoy! What do you do on the non-ski days?

I’m jealous of the airfares you can get out of New York.

I bought the Ikon cheap pass for the family and was committed to going out west....but the airfares kept dropping and the CHF came back to par with the USD and I just had to pull the trigger.

Not sure about non-ski days yet, we have never been in Zermatt for 9 nights, usually just 7 with a night by the airport. We will end up skiing more than the 5 days for sure, but also will have more time to relax and enjoy the town without packing in ski days everyday.

 

[abc]

Nonstop flight from NYC to Zurich, $445 (includes one checked bag per person)

Boy, that's a 30% increase from 10 years ago!

Just kidding. I used to go to Europe every other year. Basically alternating between Europe and the Rockies. But since the introduction of these multi-mountain passes, I haven't been to Europe for over 5 years!

(Personally, I do have the same suspicion as many others that these super-economical passes will pass in a few years. That's why I'm taking full advantage of them while putting a pause to Europe)

People got sucked into the false economy of WOW flights, to places they don't want to go, with the false promise of cheap regional flights to their true destinations. They totally missed out on the direct flights for a couple dollar extra and no layover. When I used to ski Europe, I get off at Zurich at 6am (typical landing time for transatlantic flights), and be at the mountain before 11. On the slope by noon!

 

[mister moose]

I ski at a resort that is not part of any corporate ski conglomerate. At least in the short term, Epic coming east has greatly benefited me from a cost perspective. My mountain dropped their pass prices due to needing to somewhat compete with Epic.

Where is your mountain going to make up that money lost from lower pass prices?

I don't really see significant pass price increases as part of the Vail/Epic's business model.

The Eastern drive-to market is different than the Western destination market. This will affect Eastern pricing in the very near future.

​

As for the high priced food, either go somewhere else or bring your own food.

Sure that's for you, but not most people, which is what we're discussing here. Look at Vail's financials, a lot of cheap pass buyers are spending $$ in food. It's a hook, a "Get you in the door".

The paid parking thing hasn't even happened and who knows if it even ever will in the east. IF it did, again, you have a choice to go elsewhere.

You mean the elsewhere that lowered their pass prices to compete and has to make it up from... maybe charging for parking?

I'm not saying I have this figured out, but you seem to believe other areas will not be impacted and go on their merry way. I'm not sure that's the case in like-kind competitors. Traditional market niches are getting turned upside down, and it's hard to see where all the marbles will go when it settles out. Areas that are not like-kind will possibly do ok going on their merry way.

Consider Sugarbush - close to Stowe, not enough skier visits pre Vail impact, and is not positioned very well to weather the cheap pass storm. How will they restructure to a survivable price point? Going to be interesting.

 

[cdskier]

Where is your mountain going to make up that money lost from lower pass prices?

Lower pass prices have resulted in higher sales. I can't see their financials, but they say they are happy with their results

The Eastern drive-to market is different than the Western destination market. This will affect Eastern pricing in the very near future.

We'll see. I'm not convinced there will be this huge increase that some people are predicting.

Sure that's for you, but not most people, which is what we're discussing here. Look at Vail's financials, a lot of cheap pass buyers are spending $$ in food. It's a hook, a "Get you in the door".

I don't understand why this isn't an option for "most people". Is it that difficult to make your own sandwich or something and bring it with you? Hell I see people practically bringing full multi-course meals to the mountains in their bags nowadays. If you want to save money on food, you can. It is a choice available to anyone that wants to take advantage of it.

You mean the elsewhere that lowered their pass prices to compete and has to make it up from... maybe charging for parking?

Oh, so now suddenly everyone else is going to start charging for parking? Interesting conclusions we're jumping to...

I'm not saying I have this figured out, but you seem to believe other areas will not be impacted and go on their merry way. I'm not sure that's the case in like-kind competitors. Traditional market niches are getting turned upside down, and it's hard to see where all the marbles will go when it settles out. Areas that are not like-kind will possibly do ok going on their merry way.

Consider Sugarbush - close to Stowe, not enough skier visits pre Vail impact, and is not positioned very well to weather the cheap pass storm. How will they restructure to a survivable price point? Going to be interesting.

Not enough skier visits pre Vail? You certainly wouldn't know that from the number of people on the mountain. Where do you get your data from? Win seems to think they're positioned very well as a privately owned, independent resort. As for price point, they are priced quite attractively at the moment. I'll take Win's word over yours about how well they're doing financially and how well they're positioned. One of the benefits of being privately owned is that you don't need to make money for your shareholders. You can make the money you believe you need to succeed and invest profits directly back in the mountain instead of into an investor's pocket.

 

[VTKilarney]

Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?

 

[cdskier]

Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?

There's a lot of theoretical doomsday scenarios being thrown out by people here, but little actual data to back any of it up. I always thought Stowe was pricier to begin with from what I remember even before Vail bought them, but I also think pretty much all the major resorts are pricey when it comes to food so I'm not really a good judge on this question. I'd love to see some real actual pre-Vail vs post-Vail prices on food.

 

[Zand]

There's a lot of theoretical doomsday scenarios being thrown out by people here, but little actual data to back any of it up. I always thought Stowe was pricier to begin with from what I remember even before Vail bought them, but I also think pretty much all the major resorts are pricey when it comes to food so I'm not really a good judge on this question. I'd love to see some real actual pre-Vail vs post-Vail prices on food.

It's not just Vail in the west either. Winter Park and Copper both charged me $23 for 2 slices of pizza and a water for lunch. Never seen anything that crazy in the east, Stowe included. But some (Killington, Mt Snow, probably Stowe now) are close.

BTW...I'd like to try some of those drugs people are taking to make them see cheaper flights to Europe than the Rockies. My round trip airfare from Boston to Denver the week before President's day nonstop via JetBlue was $260. If you're somehow flying to Europe cheaper than that then you're on a plane that's worse quality than a Southwest plane and I hope you don't end up somewhere near the Titanic on the way over. For the record, the only thing expensive about the Rockies that you'll save money on in Europe is a car rental. The hotels were almost half what they are in the east, nevermind Switzerland..

 

[Smellytele]

I don't understand why this isn't an option for "most people". Is it that difficult to make your own sandwich or something and bring it with you? Hell I see people practically bringing full multi-course meals to the mountains in their bags nowadays. If you want to save money on food, you can. It is a choice available to anyone that wants to take advantage of it.

I have seen some places out west (Not a Vail property) in their brown bag areas allow people to plug in crock pots which I found very interesting.

 

[Smellytele]

Oh, so now suddenly everyone else is going to start charging for parking? Interesting conclusions we're jumping to...

I believe Stowe will in some lots. Waterville does have a lot with pay for parking.

 

[spiderpig]

Shocking concept, I know.

Shocking, it says they will give refunds. Now, let's see if the Epic Pass price goes up before the sale closes. https://www.epicpass.com/info/new-epic-resorts-faqs.aspx

 

[WinS]

Where is your mountain going to make up that money lost from lower pass prices?

The Eastern drive-to market is different than the Western destination market. This will affect Eastern pricing in the very near future.

​

Sure that's for you, but not most people, which is what we're discussing here. Look at Vail's financials, a lot of cheap pass buyers are spending $$ in food. It's a hook, a "Get you in the door".


You mean the elsewhere that lowered their pass prices to compete and has to make it up from... maybe charging for parking?

I'm not saying I have this figured out, but you seem to believe other areas will not be impacted and go on their merry way. I'm not sure that's the case in like-kind competitors. Traditional market niches are getting turned upside down, and it's hard to see where all the marbles will go when it settles out. Areas that are not like-kind will possibly do ok going on their merry way.

Consider Sugarbush - close to Stowe, not enough skier visits pre Vail impact, and is not positioned very well to weather the cheap pass storm. How will they restructure to a survivable price point? Going to be interesting.

Resorts like us will remain sustainable by focusing on the segment of skiers and riders who will appreciate what we offer. No one can be all things to all people. I have never feared good competition and Vail is a smart operator with a good track record. It is the irrational that worries you. However, they are going to approach things differently than we will. Our belief is that both will appeal to enough skiers and riders for us both to be successful. Independently owned and operated resorts can make quick decisions and be creative and remain in close contact with their communities and guests. If we are sustainable, we can also continue to make the improvements to be competitive as we did last year with new two new lifts, Axess gates, snowmaking upgrades and two new groomers. We do not need to drive a lot more volume to be sustainable but this year we did see a small increase in skier visits so that was encouraging and pass sales have been encouraging. We do want to remain independent but also realize that partnering with the Mountain Collective and The Ikon Pass increases our competitive offerings. While admittedly biased, in an industry which will continue to consolidate well run independents will continue to thrive. The bigger threat to all of us is the changing climate.

A comment about ticket prices. While window tickets have soared so too have pre-season tickets and the online options which are offered at significant discounts to the window ticket. Fewer and fewer people buy at the window any more.

 

[farlep99]

Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?

Didn't notice any price difference in Stowe's food prices this past season compared to the prior. If there was an increase at all it was minimal & would be normal without the ownership change. Stowe has historically been pricier with food but never found it to be that much more than Killington, Sugarbush, etc.

 

[boston_e]

Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?

I haven't been to Stowe in quite a few years, but a single slice of pizza at Park City this past winter was $14.