VAIL SUCKS

[Cobbold]

It would have been better for Pirate fans everywhere if Vail bought the Pirates, too.

would your epic pass be valid at pirates game? And get twenty percent off on food and drinks at the stadium

 

[deadheadskier]

That sucks. I like 7 Springs. Probably my favorite of the Mid Atlantic ski areas I've been to. I enjoyed it more than Snowshoe even

One can only hope that the continued debt growth accelerates Vails demise

 

[drjeff]

New theory is maybe KSL/Alterra will buy Blue Knob to compete with Vail. As much as I hate to see the megacorps grow, Blue Knob more than anyone needs capital, and Vail needs competition...

Are there even enough decent properties, with decent amounts of skier visits in the general PA/Mid Atlantic area that KSL/Alterra could buy/enter into an IKON agreement with now, that would make getting an IKON for those that live in that general area worth it interms of an IKON being much more than a pass for a destination trip out West with what Vail has in their Epic portfolio? I am just not familiar enough with the resorts in that general geographic area to recognize more than just a few names, and the majority of those seem to be on the Epic now.

I think that many who don't reside in that general area forget #1 how many people live in that region who are skiers/riders as well as how many ski resorts there are in that general area. And for the average skier/rider in that area, having multiple options within a reasonable drive time, plus the Western destination resort options and the price point of the Epic has to grab one's interest on the surface

 

[abc]

how come asc was jumped all over for antitrust but vail does pretty much as they please?

Anyone got some thoughts on that?

 

[icecoast1]

Also how come asc was jumped all over for antitrust but vail does pretty much as they please?

Probably more money for the right lawyers and lobbiests to grease the right wheels

 

[x10003q]

How does Vail possibly have cash to still be buying up resorts?
HV and LM are dinky but 7 Springs is a major major operation, hotel, conference center, spa, condos...
Vail now owns 6/7 resorts in Southern PA and 8/20 in PA.

Regarding antitrust, Nutting's 7S/HV/LM was the largest competitor to Vail in the Baltimore/DC/central PA market. This also neuters the Laurel Highlands pass, which cross honors with Wisp, Wintergreen, Ragged, Powderhorn, and Mt. Washington BC.

I am sure Vail wants nothing to do with Hidden Valley and Laurel Mountain and will neglect them even worse before. Or else they will ruin the whole Laurel Mountain schtick with fat groomers and changes to the lodge. LM is owned by the state of PA - maybe they will terminate their contract?

If the investor statement is remotely accurate, the straight return will easily exceed the cost to borrow. Then there is the added profit in bringing this region into the Epic fold when they travel for bigger skiing.

 

[IceEidolon]

Seems like apart from BK and maybe Tussey, Western PA is locked up. CamelBlue in the NY/Philly region is way better than JFBB but it's not clear if those will join Icon or just pair up with each other. If Alterra can't get CamelBlue on their pass then there's no reason to even try in PA with Blue Knob - they're outgunned hard from the west, the south, and the east by better developed properties. If Alterra wants to commit to PA hard, I'd bet Montage and Elk get propositioned before BK does though I can't guess if either would be inclined to accept.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Are there even enough decent properties, with decent amounts of skier visits in the general PA/Mid Atlantic area that KSL/Alterra could buy/enter into an IKON agreement with now, that would make getting an IKON for those that live in that general area worth it interms of an IKON being much more than a pass for a destination trip out West with what Vail has in their Epic portfolio? I am just not familiar enough with the resorts in that general geographic area to recognize more than just a few names, and the majority of those seem to be on the Epic now. Not really

I think that many who don't reside in that general area forget #1 how many people live in that region who are skiers/riders as well as how many ski resorts there are in that general area. And for the average skier/rider in that area, having multiple options within a reasonable drive time, plus the Western destination resort options and the price point of the Epic has to grab one's interest on the surface 100% Truth

 

[deadheadskier]

Crotched delaying their opening from this weekend. Blaming mother nature. Wachusette says, "We are 50 miles south and have been open for weeks"

 

[Edd]

Crotched delaying their opening from this weekend. Blaming mother nature. Wachusette says, "We are 50 miles south and have been open for weeks"

Someone should tell them that on Instagram. Don’t worry, I’m on it.

 

[snoseek]

If they can't do it this week then looking at the weather for the next 7 days tells me they probably won't make that either.

 

[thetrailboss]

Crotched delaying their opening from this weekend. Blaming mother nature. Wachusette says, "We are 50 miles south and have been open for weeks"

And to think that 15 years ago Crotched was a direct, and strong, competitor to Wachusett.....

 

[Edd]

Once the snow flies properly it’ll be kinda ok but, early season in the east, it’s like a parody of running a ski area. Like they don’t-give-a-fuck. It’s insane.

 

[snoseek]

I'm convinced they're using weather as an excuse to get these areas as close to xmas-presidents day of a season and fuck appeasing pass holders

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm convinced they're using weather as an excuse to get these areas as close to xmas-presidents day of a season and fuck appeasing pass holders

It reduces their costs.

 

[PAabe]

Are there even enough decent properties, with decent amounts of skier visits in the general PA/Mid Atlantic area that KSL/Alterra could buy/enter into an IKON agreement with now, that would make getting an IKON for those that live in that general area worth it interms of an IKON being much more than a pass for a destination trip out West with what Vail has in their Epic portfolio? I am just not familiar enough with the resorts in that general geographic area to recognize more than just a few names, and the majority of those seem to be on the Epic now.

I think that many who don't reside in that general area forget #1 how many people live in that region who are skiers/riders as well as how many ski resorts there are in that general area. And for the average skier/rider in that area, having multiple options within a reasonable drive time, plus the Western destination resort options and the price point of the Epic has to grab one's interest on the surface

There are plenty of places in eastern PA that have not yet been gobbled up. Vail actually got two of the most unexciting areas in that part of the state so KSL is already ahead of them there with CamelBlue. You got Elk, Montage, Shawnee, and Bear Creek as major players, about a half dozen additional small or private operations, and about another half dozen small places that closed in the past decade.

In the DC and Pittsburgh market, Wisp, Timberline, Canaan Valley, Boyce, Bryce, Massanutten, Wintergreen, and Winterplace are all seperate, and Alterra already owns Snowshoe which is undisputedly the best South of PA.

Pittsburgh and Ohio people also go North with the Buffalo market to Peek n Peak, Holiday Valley, Bristol, and a bunch of smaller places.

In the middle of PA you got Blue Knob. Tussey and Sawmill are small despite being surrounded by big mountains. The state of PA is actually looking for an operator for Denton Hill (really in the middle of nowhere though). There is also this place which was planned to be massive but never got developed: https://www.dcski.com/lostareas/viewlostprofile.php?id=18

Blue Knob could easily be the best ski area south of NY if some investment went in. There is a whole long discussion on the dc forums about it but basically there has been little to no investment ever since the put the condos in in 1982 (

Peter Graves captain clarence oveuer from Airplane). It is the highest and coldest mountain in the state, with the most true vert, lots of land that they already own on which they could expand, and is located right near a bunch of highways. The issue is that nobody knows about it and they barely have enough money to get enough snow made to open every year. It also is now the only area in that south central part of the state that is not Vail.

 

[abc]

fuck appeasing pass holders

It's their choice. There're other passes to choose from for the majority of skiers.

Ultimately, the loudest voice is the cash register. If skiers are happy with a shorten season on a pass discount of 20%, Vail will continue the practice.

 

[kendo]

Honestly I am not shocked at all, as it seems like their acquisition strategy lately is all about small to medium sized areas in larger population areas, which will ultimately drive the sale of more Epic passes, which sure seems like the business plan,

Lets just hope at somepoint the reality that running smaller areas in more populated areas requires some different thought processes than larger Western destination resorts.

Wouldn't shock me at all if Vail goes after a few more small/mid sized areas in the Midwest at some point

Vail investor presentation with the 2021/22 plan:

https://investors.vailresorts.com/static-files/aa764731-c8b8-45bf-b928-39630c190011

Focus is 1000% on increased subscriptions (passes/advanced tix), expansion into more prime MSA's (population centers), increasing lifetime customer value thru data mining, metric tracking & targeted marketing... all while leveraging central management for lower costs.


I'd bet that Bristol Mtn and Holiday Valley in western NY (Rochester / Buffalo / Cleveland) are both on the Vail radar.

 

[PAabe]

Trail map has shrunk since 1982. Lifts are 60s and 80s vintage. 2nd tallest peak of any mountain in the state, and only 10' less vert than Blue Mountain. Longest runs and lifts in the state. They own a lot of land on all sides outside the ski area boundary, and the state-owned land surrounding it is also available to be used (they already use the summit). Somebody with money to update the snowmaking system, finish the trail build out, and put in a new lift could make it very competitive with the surrounding Vail properties.

 

[jimmywilson69]

There are plenty of places in eastern PA that have not yet been gobbled up. Vail actually got two of the most unexciting areas in that part of the state so KSL is already ahead of them there with CamelBlue. You got Elk, Montage, Shawnee, and Bear Creek as major players, about a half dozen additional small or private operations, and about another half dozen small places that closed in the past decade.

In the DC and Pittsburgh market, Wisp, Timberline, Canaan Valley, Boyce, Bryce, Massanutten, Wintergreen, and Winterplace are all seperate, and Alterra already owns Snowshoe which is undisputedly the best South of PA.

Pittsburgh and Ohio people also go North with the Buffalo market to Peek n Peak, Holiday Valley, Bristol, and a bunch of smaller places.

In the middle of PA you got Blue Knob. Tussey and Sawmill are small despite being surrounded by big mountains. The state of PA is actually looking for an operator for Denton Hill (really in the middle of nowhere though). There is also this place which was planned to be massive but never got developed: https://www.dcski.com/lostareas/viewlostprofile.php?id=18

Blue Knob could easily be the best ski area south of NY if some investment went in. There is a whole long discussion on the dc forums about it but basically there has been little to no investment ever since the put the condos in in 1982 (

Peter Graves captain clarence oveuer from Airplane). It is the highest and coldest mountain in the state, with the most true vert, lots of land that they already own on which they could expand, and is located right near a bunch of highways. The issue is that nobody knows about it and they barely have enough money to get enough snow made to open every year. It also is now the only area in that south central part of the state that is not Vail.

It's in Blue Knob State Park so they don't own the land it also creates some red tape for improvements