ss20
Well-known member
Nope. With effectively zero organic growth in this industry the only way you grow is by M/A. That's their model. It was ASC's model. You stop buying you start dying.
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VAIL SUCKS
- Thread starter thebigo
- Start date
Nope. With effectively zero organic growth in this industry the only way you grow is by M/A. That's their model. It was ASC's model. You stop buying you start dying.
LonghornSkier
Active member
I'd disagree with that... You can also drive topline growth by taking pricing (I'd say vail has an opportunity here in the long run-Epic Passes are quite cheap).
ss20
Well-known member
Perhaps....but I doubt it. Once you "own" the industry you're not going to get much growth. Look at McDonald's where growth is (for the most part) in the low single-digit percentages.
My guess before vail buys a property they already have a plan for it, it seems vail is developing a three zone system, international destination places like vail, whistler etc, regional destinations like Stowe, Mt snow, etc , regional feeder mtns like Afton alps, wilmot etc, some crossovers, is Mt snow now a regional destination and a feeder Mtn for vail? Is Sunapee a regional destination or strictly a feeder Mtn or both?, same with whitetail, liberty and round top in pa.
butternut Mtn which is really 3 mtns, butternut, Otis ridge and blandford, which butternut just closed, Otis ridge would appeal to people in Torrington ct area down to Waterbury, blandford is big from Northampton down thru spfd into northern ct, my guess if butternut group wants out vail is interested as well as Berkshire East group, Berkshire East group is involved with the new Bousquet, seems Bousquet has stumbled a bit, Berkshire East crowd not as flawless as I thought. If I was vail, I would snag butternut group, skisundown, yawgoo valley and nasoba valley, make it hard for southern new Englanders not to have an epic pass, just for the convenience if nothing else.
Park City has issues....
Why Ski Patrollers Are Picketing at Two Vail Resorts
Union members at Stevens Pass and Park City Mountain Resort want better wages and working conditions but say their parent company has dragged its feet in negotiations. If they still can't get to the bargaining table, could a strike shut down the two ski areas?
www.outsideonline.com
Conversely
You grow too much and you also start dying.
See ASC, Intrawest, Booth Creek and others
kingslug
Well-known member
Franchises are like this. I owned a franchise many moons ago. I was one of their first owners and for some time became their biggest..but. .They treated me like gold, got me a ton of business. But soon they realized they had to grow by getting more franchisees. This hurt the original batch of us as they abandoned us. And soon lost us. I don't know how this worked out for them. Will be interesting to see what Vail does with the properties they own. Leave as is or develop them more. Heard they are building more condos at Stowe.
wasn't that huge growth and bringing on new debt a huge contributing factor in ASCs demise? Doesn't seem like a good time for Vail to be buying up properties right now given their financial situation and the unknown of when things will go back to normal
I'm pretty sure that Vail does not own the real estate part of the resort--just the mountain ops.
Condos at Stowe ( spruce peak) are not being financed by vail, it think it’s the original owner aig , but I could be wrong
That's my understanding. Vail wanted the real estate but AIG (or whatever it is now) did not want to sell that portion of the resort.
abc
Well-known member
Slope side condo not owned by the resort is tricky. Condo owners are at the mercy of the mountain operation. If the mountain owner changes hands and the operation priority changes, the property owners have no say.
I'm very much appreciate the owner of the house I'm staying in who chose to stay off slope in a nearby village. Sure it's a bit of a drag to have to drive to ski. But it offers a lot more flexibility to have the option to ski at something like 4-5 mountains within 1/2 hr drive. I know the owner have, over the years, had season passes at Okemo, Stratton and Bromley. And now focus more on cross country than downhill.
I'm very much appreciate the owner of the house I'm staying in who chose to stay off slope in a nearby village. Sure it's a bit of a drag to have to drive to ski. But it offers a lot more flexibility to have the option to ski at something like 4-5 mountains within 1/2 hr drive. I know the owner have, over the years, had season passes at Okemo, Stratton and Bromley. And now focus more on cross country than downhill.
kingslug
Well-known member
We looked at the slopeside condos at Stowe..very expensive for what is basically a small room. They get 50% of any rental..and charge you for cleaning..ok..but even if you are staying there.
Found one 6 miles down the road..3x bigger, next to 2 restaurants..and I get to pass the Edelweiss deli on the way. Once this is all over..maybe I can spend some time there. Renting it lately.
Found one 6 miles down the road..3x bigger, next to 2 restaurants..and I get to pass the Edelweiss deli on the way. Once this is all over..maybe I can spend some time there. Renting it lately.
Pretty clear to me that Vail has already crapped the bed regarding pissing customers off.
They will soon learn about many in the NE going elsewhere. While part of my decision to ski in NY only was due to travel restrictions, I was also very displeased with how resorts that are part of megapasses basically screwed single mountain season passholders by throwing them in with megapass skiers. An example in my case is the ridiculous parking reservation systems. Season passholders at Killington treated no better than IKON holders. That's bullshit. Season passholders at K should have had priority making parking reservations. IKON holders get whatever is leftover. I don't care if there is plenty of parking midweek. The system disrespects the very skiers who commit to supporting a single hill. Those folks should and will go elsewhere if possible. Same applies to Vail.
So I decided to stay in NY this season and guess what? It's been an awesome season so far. So why would I bother to go to VT megapass resorts anymore? Totally their loss.
This COVID thing making everyone cranky,lol
That really is unique to Killington and fwiw they arent owned by Altera.
2planks2coasts
Active member
- Joined
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The dislike of Vail goes way back. Many years before Covid. Long before they started buying in the east. By the time the PCMR acquisition happened, it was well understood that Vail was good for bringing skiers and revenue to a mountain, but awful for both the community and the sport of skiing itself.
My dislike goes back to when they moved into Tahoe specifically kirkwood. After seeing how that went down I have a good idea of how that would work back east and so far I was right. We see the full story next winter providing things are somewhat normal
Who is cranky? Just stating facts. You are an outlier and your response was expected. We already know you are a Vail fanboy.
I don't care about that. It makes it even worse that K isn't owned by Alterra but allows them to dictate policy like that. Another strike against VT next season!
machski
Well-known member
Alterra didn't dictate anything to K or Powdr, it was up to them. I say this because at Loon, they put Ikon passholders on a reservation requirement but did not extend thst to their own season passholders. Sunday River and Sugarloaf, while also owned by Boyne did not. Big Sky, a big marque on Ikon IS requiring Ikon Pass reservations. So I highly doubt this was Alterra strong arming Powdr.
