VAIL SUCKS

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

But it isn't just a few trials. Unlike K in VT or Sunday River in ME, mountains in the Cats NEEDS snowmaking. Lot of snowmaking.

Put that next to the zero snowmaking of Wildcat and Attitash, it's pretty obvious Vail doesn't have a clue on how to run northeast mountains. Or worse, they know how it needs to be run but decided against it for the sake of saving pennies.

It's going to come back and haunt them. All those who couldn't get reservation at Hunter, or show up only with half the terrain open, probably won't be renewing their Epic pass.

Mid March and Hunter is all open other than natural snow only trails and glades. And being sold out to capacity on weekends shows they are doing something right, not wrong.

 

[abc]

being sold out to capacity on weekends shows they are doing something right, not wrong.

I bet to differ.

The sold out capacity is not Vail's doing "right". It's due to the travel restriction of VT. There're no other Vail mountains south of VT till you go all the way to Pennsylvania! No matter how "wrong" they do it, it would have been sold out regardless.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Can't say I have noticed the lines at Hunter being worse than those at Snow or Okemo.

They all have ridiculous weekend lines at the high speed prominent lifts from the main base - and pretty manageable lines at less prominent lifts.

Have never had a problem getting reservations for any of them either - by consistently reserving the max next 7 weekend/holiday days going forward - doing an 8th right after using the first.

Looks like I will get 40+ days and 550k+ vertical in by end of season on a pass that cost me like $550. That's a dollar per thousand foot vertical run. A steal.

 

[Andrew B.]

Ehhh... no one pushed hard with snowmaking, and that's not specific to Vail. Killington didn't blow on Conclusion and not on Ovation til mid-February. We'll add Vertigo in that list too but they did not blow on that last year either for unknown reasons. Stratton had not blown on a number of trails in the Sunbowl last I was there in mid-February. Sunday River left a few trails unblown too iirc.

The only trail SR didn’t blow that they usually blow is agony and if the regulars I know have their way they should never blow on it again. It skied much better with just natural. It will likely melt out a little earlier but so be it.
The prime reason I have heard for not blowing on it was because every time they do it messes up the Barker lift and they could t take the chance of the lift imploding again. It has run pretty reliable this season <knock on wood>.

I will admit they didn’t seem to load some trails as in years past but the typical snowmaking trails all got snow.

 

[machski]

Peak clearly didn't do shit for lift maintenance. Vail has been dealing with crappy lifts at pretty much every property they bought from them, from Crested Butte on down. That should probably be the news story but yeah sure, fuck Vail.

Your decision point about covid was whether you showed up to ski or not, not some extended lift line time by the way.

I do find it amusing that all of a sudden people have forgotten that Wildcat and Attitash were the red headed step child's even before Vail bought them. Wildcat is worth what, 4 million? That is chump change in the ski industry and it is worth that for a reason. The problem with Attitash and Wildcat is people think they are resorts when in reality they are rinky dink ski areas IMO.

Crested Butte wasn't owned or operated by Peak, but ok.

 

[machski]

I'd have to add to that list

The only trail SR didn’t blow that they usually blow is agony and if the regulars I know have their way they should never blow on it again. It skied much better with just natural. It will likely melt out a little earlier but so be it.
The prime reason I have heard for not blowing on it was because every time they do it messes up the Barker lift and they could t take the chance of the lift imploding again. It has run pretty reliable this season <knock on wood>.

I will admit they didn’t seem to load some trails as in years past but the typical snowmaking trails all got snow.

The only trail SR didn’t blow that they usually blow is agony and if the regulars I know have their way they should never blow on it again. It skied much better with just natural. It will likely melt out a little earlier but so be it.
The prime reason I have heard for not blowing on it was because every time they do it messes up the Barker lift and they could t take the chance of the lift imploding again. It has run pretty reliable this season <knock on wood>.

I will admit they didn’t seem to load some trails as in years past but the typical snowmaking trails all got snow.

I'd have to add Eureka to your list. Sure, for a while in the 2010's they skipped it but the last few years they have been sure to hit it. Looked to be in the plans this season since they set up guns and pulled them out. Then we got decent snow early February and seemed to can the plans for it. Has skied well, but I think we and they will be missing the added base Snowmaking would have provided. That run is a blast in the spring and with just natural cover, it won't last long unless ma nature changes her tune later this month.

 

[Andrew B.]

I'd have to add to that list



I'd have to add Eureka to your list. Sure, for a while in the 2010's they skipped it but the last few years they have been sure to hit it. Looked to be in the plans this season since they set up guns and pulled them out. Then we got decent snow early February and seemed to can the plans for it. Has skied well, but I think we and they will be missing the added base Snowmaking would have provided. That run is a blast in the spring and with just natural cover, it won't last long unless ma nature changes her tune later this month.

They did blew quantum leap which is definitely hit or miss with snowmaking
Overall I think they hit as many trails as normal with maybe a little less depth

 

[jimmywilson69]

This changes everything...

Every Vail Twitter account sent out the same exact tweet down to the emojis...

Literally no soul...

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Nice that it makes clear that the passes are being announced then - which email remained coy on

 

[Mum skier]

Two years in a row we had a nice surprise with Epic. First year we bought they had just made an agreement with Okemo/Sunape/CB to allow Epic pass holders 5 days (or something like that). But by the time the season had started Vail had bought them out so without planning it we suddenly had a season pass for Okemo and Sunapee which at the time were a couple of our favorites. Then the next year (again after we had already committed) they bought Peaks which brought Mt Snow and the other NH resorts in. Now Covid messed up last year end of season and I know the NH resorts have been overlooked by Vail this year (well not Sunapee that’s been a pretty normal season), but it was still a bunch more areas that we were not expecting.
so really hoping there might be a nice new surprise in there for next season.

 

[McFatt]

Epic Pass Save the Date for pass sales at the end of March with NO mention of cost is complete BS. Almost all the other competitor passes are on sale now and IMO are priced high. I bet the Epic Pass comes in a $949 this year for unlimited. Who wants to take the over/under?

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.

 

[Edd]

I haven’t decided on what to do next year but it’s difficult to walk away from Wildcat with the Veteran Pass option. I was discussing it with a few friends yesterday and buying both Epic and Ikon is on the table.

 

[cdskier]

It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.

Or a sign of "we don't have our shit together for some reason and don't have all the details worked out yet."

 

[abc]

It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.

Disagree slightly.

There may not be price increase from other passes, some of them comes with spring privileges that can be used immediately.

I think Vail is only preaching to the choir at this point.

Those who plan to abandon Epic Pass won’t wait. Those who didn’t buy this year will be attracted to spring benefits of passes that offers it. They aren’t going to wait either.

Those whose home mountain is owned by Vail had no choice but to wait.

We can pretty much see what’s coming. There will be no significant credit/discount for current pass holders. The price will likely very similar to last season. So no breath holding till Vail’s announcement.

 

[abc]

It is annoying but as there are no price rises for other passes before then, it ultimately doesn't matter. It is a show of confidence on their part.

Or a sign of "we don't have our shit together for some reason and don't have all the details worked out yet."

I agree with the latter.

Less of a "show of confidence". More a case of "let's wait and see what others do" and follow the leader.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

I will wait and see myself whether to renew. Ikon isn't offering any Spring benefits I could use before March 23. Also considering ORDA - so it does mean forgoing using their pass March 20-21. But I am good with Epic options for that weekend.

Honestly the biggest thing that would sway me to renew Epic is if they added some additional appealing options in northeast / mid Atlantic.

 

[PAabe]

I don't think there is really anything left to take over in the mid-Atlantic except Denton Hill or maybe Blue Knob (and why would vail want either of those, they suffer from being in the middle of nowhere). Everything else seems to be under sound management or otherwise has already been gobbled up by somebody.

Even then, Vail already has 2 poconos hills and 3 hills for Baltimore/DC/noVA/sePA market. I can't think of anywhere that fits the Vail/Ikon mold around here that needs any help selling tickets/passes or needs infrastructure investment.

Vail has their hands full as it is with the massive takeover of Peak resorts.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

They had discussions about buying Blue a year or two ago. If they added that - or Camelback or Montage - I would stick with them.

PA options are what made them more appealing than Ikon or ORDA for me. Prob with their PA options is they are all pretty weak - other than Whitetail - but that's further than Hunter for me (central NJ).

 

[PAabe]

I am surprised to hear Blue had discussions about selling although I have heard the current owner does not seem to be quite as interested in skiing as the previous owner. They are packed all the time, sell plenty of tickets, and plenty of passes. They are the closest big hill to much of PA, NJ, and DE. They seem to make plenty of money, their lift infrastructure is fine and pretty much maxed out, and they have no trouble blowing massive amounts of snow and opening up fast every year. I don't see how being on a mega pass could generate more income at Blue.

Same goes for Mountain Creek and Bear Creek. Similar situation with Camelback except they must make a killing with the real estate and waterpark also. Anybody that charges as much as they do and still is a zoo of crowds has to be doing fine.

Montage is weird. At one time it was owned by the city of Scranton and their snowmaking pond is the municipal water supply. A lot of their revenue must come from the year round events that they host, as well as the water park. No lodging on site. Lifts are old but there has been investment into the lodges and stuff, and there isn't really any obvious upgrades to be made to the lift infrastructure given the weird terrain. I just can't really see them going onto Epic seeing as Vail already owns JFBB. and it doesn't seem classy enough to be on Ikon.

Elk owner is interesting, wants the place to look like vermont 50 years ago, I think he owns much of the surrounding land and the place is in the middle of nowhere. He is old but again I would be very surprised to see Elk end up with Epic/Ikon

Shawnee, Spring Mountain, and Campgaw do not attract the kind of person that buys Epic/Ikon passes.

Timberline has new owner, new investment, and seems to be doing fantastic. Canaan Valley is owned by the state. Contract to operate Laurel Mountain from the state was bought by Nutting to go with 7springs/hidden valley and they all seem to be doing great. I don't know enough to comment about Massanutten or Bryce or Wisp or other small north/west PA/southern NY places

Like I said, Blue Knob seems cash strapped and the state of PA is looking for an operator for Denton Hill but everywhere else seems to be doing fine and seems to be managed fine. Wow this is a wall of text but that's my take on the mid Atlantic ski industry and why I would be surprised to see Vail or Ikon will be expanding around here any time soon.