Vermont Skier Visits Down Significantly Due to COVID-19

[drjeff]

In the history of vaccines has there ever been a case of some long term side effect that showed up much later on in life? Everything I've read seems to indicate that if there is a side effect it would make its appearance pretty shortly after receiving the vaccine (for example the blood clots in the J&J).

Has there ever been a case of some unknown side effect from a vaccine that suddenly appeared something like 10 years later?

Short of the hype and later fully disproven as false claims of the "link" between vaccines and autism, I can't think of any either off the top of my head.

Fully agree that it seems like any vaccine side effects tend to manifest in the short term after vaccination, rather than years down the road

 

[BenedictGomez]

Serious allegation with zero evidence. Yet spouted with "guarantee" confidence, by a "brilliant immunologist"

Again, not taking your "start an argument on the internet" desperation bait, so one post only and the thing I'll note is you said the same thing a year ago when I predicted we'd learn the virus started in the L4 Wuhan biosafety facility, you called that a conspiracy theory etc... You have a great track record of being wrong.

My comment is based on what we definitively know goes on in Chinese prisons re: medical experimentation, and you obviously having no knowledge of this fact just publicly demonstrates your ignorance.

 

[abc]

when I predicted we'd learn the virus started in the L4 Wuhan biosafety facility,

You've "proved" your prediction was "right" by your non-existent of evidence.

Enough said.

you called that a conspiracy theory etc... You have a great track record of being wrong.

Many here were baffled how the right wing covid-denier and vaccine refusnik managed to perpetuate their conspiracy theory. Thanks for the clear demonstration of how it can be done.

 

[drjeff]

You've "proved" your prediction was "right" by your non-existent of evidence.

Enough said.

ABC, I think you missed the conext of BG's post, in that it seems like he was inferring that a year ago, when he postulated that the source of the virus likely was from inside a Level 4 Coronavirus research lab in Wuhan, that many said at that time that there was no way that that could be true and that the virus definitely orgnated in a wet market in Wuhan. So many would give zero credibility to the lab leak theory and all the credibility to the wet market theory that was put forth to the media by the Chinese Communist Party, even though there was no actual evidence of this being the case, just official state word from the CCP.

Now a year later, even those who were adamant last year that this wasn't a lab leak, are acknowledging that this virus likely has man made origins, from the lab that was doing gain of function reserach, and that a lab leak is the probable origin, regardless of what the CCP is saying.

BG appears to be correct with his comments a year or so ago, and you appear to be wrong with your feeling that the lab leak was a conspiracy theory. Will there ever be 100% concrete evidence of the exact cause, probably not as long as the current folks running the CCP are in control, howver there sure seems to be an ever increase preponderance of evidence that COVID originated from a lab and not a wet market.

Sometimes the ability to acknowledge that one's initial impression on something didn't end up being correct is a much better way to learn and advance things than hanging onto something when it doesn't add up as new information becomes available

 

[cdskier]

In the history of vaccines has there ever been a case of some long term side effect that showed up much later on in life? Everything I've read seems to indicate that if there is a side effect it would make its appearance pretty shortly after receiving the vaccine (for example the blood clots in the J&J).

Has there ever been a case of some unknown side effect from a vaccine that suddenly appeared something like 10 years later?

Here's the answer from a prominent expert in the field of vaccines and vaccine safety...

The most serious vaccine side effects in history have all been caught within six weeks, said Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital in Philadelphia and a member of the FDA's Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee.
"I would say, please tell me what vaccine has ever been shown to cause a long-term side effect that was not picked up in the first two months," said Offit, a co-creator of the rotavirus vaccine who has studied vaccinology for more than four decades.

Granted there's always a first for everything, but the overwhelming historical evidence of vaccines says it is not likely.

 

[abc]

Now a year later, even those who were adamant last year that this wasn't a lab leak, are acknowledging that this virus likely has man made origins, from the lab that was doing gain of function reserach, and that a lab leak is the probable origin, regardless of what the CCP is saying.

Source please?

I'm not going to "believe" anything except what can be supported by evidence. If, the genetic analysis indicates it's man made, NOW. I'll change my view to keep up with the scientific evidence. However, a year ago, there's no such evidence. BG may have been "right" in his believe by coincidence. (a year and a half ago, he also insist no young healthy Italians had died in their outbreak too) Like the sayinggoes, a stopped clock are right twice a day!

He's insistence on presenting a "theory" as FACT is entirely against scientific methodology. In fact, many conspiracy theory are using that very approach, that there's a thin veneer of "evidence" to PART of their 'theory", therefore their theory must be "right".

Vaccine being harmful? Of course it's possible, however remote that possibility. That's what vaccine refusal messages are based on. Is there a tiny bit of such possibility? Is that a good base on the conspiracy theory that the government is planting something in our body to remotely control us in the future?

 

[drjeff]

Source please?

I'm not going to "believe" anything except what can be supported by evidence. If, the genetic analysis indicates it's man made, NOW. I'll change my view to keep up with the scientific evidence. However, a year ago, there's no such evidence. BG may have been "right" in his believe by coincidence. (a year and a half ago, he also insist no young healthy Italians had died in their outbreak too) Like the sayinggoes, a stopped clock are right twice a day!

He's insistence on presenting a "theory" as FACT is entirely against scientific methodology. In fact, many conspiracy theory are using that very approach, that there's a thin veneer of "evidence" to PART of their 'theory", therefore their theory must be "right".

Vaccine being harmful? Of course it's possible, however remote that possibility. That's what vaccine refusal messages are based on. Is there a tiny bit of such possibility? Is that a good base on the conspiracy theory that the government is planting something in our body to remotely control us in the future?

From the Wallstreet Journal, not exactly a right wing conspiracy publication by any means. Yes, it was one of their opinion pieces, howvere if you read the science they used to formulate their position, it's pretty strong

Opinion | The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak

The Covid-19 pathogen has a genetic footprint that has never been observed in a natural coronavirus.

www.wsj.com

And another one from Vanity Fair, who has been publishing some solid investigative journalism pieces lately

The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19’s Origins

Throughout 2020, the notion that the novel coronavirus leaked from a lab was off-limits. Those who dared to push for transparency say toxic politics and hidden agendas kept us in the dark.

www.vanityfair.com

Heck, even CNN via a Senior Biden official is saying that the lab leak theory certainly seems to have some validity

Senior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory as credible as natural origins explanation | CNN Politics

Senior Biden administration officials overseeing an intelligence review into the origins of the coronavirus now believe the theory that the virus accidentally escaped from a lab in Wuhan is at least as credible as the possibility that it emerged naturally in the wild -- a dramatic shift from a...

www.cnn.com

 

[abc]

From the Wallstreet Journal, not exactly a right wing conspiracy publication by any means. Yes, it was one of their opinion pieces, howvere if you read the science they used to formulate their position, it's pretty strong

Opinion | The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak

The Covid-19 pathogen has a genetic footprint that has never been observed in a natural coronavirus.

www.wsj.com

And another one from Vanity Fair, who has been publishing some solid investigative journalism pieces lately

The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19’s Origins

Throughout 2020, the notion that the novel coronavirus leaked from a lab was off-limits. Those who dared to push for transparency say toxic politics and hidden agendas kept us in the dark.

www.vanityfair.com

Heck, even CNN via a Senior Biden official is saying that the lab leak theory certainly seems to have some validity

Senior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory as credible as natural origins explanation | CNN Politics

Senior Biden administration officials overseeing an intelligence review into the origins of the coronavirus now believe the theory that the virus accidentally escaped from a lab in Wuhan is at least as credible as the possibility that it emerged naturally in the wild -- a dramatic shift from a...

www.cnn.com

I wasn't able to access the WSJ article as it's paywalled.

But the Vanity Fair article, while long on the cover-up effort, presented no evidence to support the man-made origin theory.

The last piece from CNN repeatedly mentioned there's no new evidence emerging.

"Little new evidence has emerged to move the needle in one direction or another, these people said. But the fact that the lab leak theory is being seriously considered by top Biden officials is noteworthy and comes amid a growing openness to the idea even though most scientists who study coronaviruses and who have investigated the origins of the pandemic say the evidence strongly supports a natural origin."

Only difference now being that since the conspiracy theorist, AKA Trump and his political cohorts, are kicked to the side, there may possibly a potential opportunity to actually examine the true origin of the virus, in which ALL possibility should be examined. Most notably, even if a theory had once been adopted by conspiracy theorist, doesn't disqualify it from further investigating.

That's how science is being conducted. It doesn't make a conspiracy theorist into a scientist.

 

[Smellytele]

Here's the answer from a prominent expert in the field of vaccines and vaccine safety...



Granted there's always a first for everything, but the overwhelming historical evidence of vaccines says it is not likely.

Not that I want to defend ABC but these (Pfizer and Moderna) are new types of vaccines mRNA

 

[drjeff]

Not that I want to defend ABC but these (Pfizer and Moderna) are new types of vaccines mRNA

Which arguably have had less initial "severe" side effects than the J&J vaccine which is based on the "old school" adenovirus virus based vaccines...

And frankly I fully feel that the actions the CDC put forth for that roughly 10 day time frame where they temporarily halted use of the J&J vaccine took the buzz phrase "out of an abundance of caution" to the nth degree, and arguably caused added vaccination hesitancy amongst some, who may have chosen to get vaccinated, but changed their minds and may still not have been vaccinated.

 

[drjeff]

I wasn't able to access the WSJ article as it's paywalled.

But the Vanity Fair article, while long on the cover-up effort, presented no evidence to support the man-made origin theory.

The last piece from CNN repeatedly mentioned there's no new evidence emerging.

"Little new evidence has emerged to move the needle in one direction or another, these people said. But the fact that the lab leak theory is being seriously considered by top Biden officials is noteworthy and comes amid a growing openness to the idea even though most scientists who study coronaviruses and who have investigated the origins of the pandemic say the evidence strongly supports a natural origin."

Only difference now being that since the conspiracy theorist, AKA Trump and his political cohorts, are kicked to the side, there may possibly a potential opportunity to actually examine the true origin of the virus, in which ALL possibility should be examined. Most notably, even if a theory had once been adopted by conspiracy theorist, doesn't disqualify it from further investigating.

That's how science is being conducted. It doesn't make a conspiracy theorist into a scientist.

Do you honestly think that the Chinese Communist Party will be openly forthcoming with the complete amount of information needed to conduct an accurate investigation into the true origins of COVID?

I would put about as much believability into the truth of the information they release to the World as I put in their early on believability of their death counts from COVID for a long time being at less than 10,000.

 

[cdskier]

Not that I want to defend ABC but these (Pfizer and Moderna) are new types of vaccines mRNA

They've been studied and researched for several decades now. Just because it hasn't been commercially used doesn't mean it is really "new". Clinical trials of various mRNA vaccines have been going on for about a decade even in humans. If there were long-term safety impacts of mRNA vaccine technology itself, we'd very likely have known about it by now (unless it is something that takes 20-30 years to show up, which is extremely unlikely given how the mRNA vaccine actually works).

Honestly mRNA is one of the most promising and exciting advances in vaccine technology in ages. Not long before COVID there were some companies starting to make some significant investments in it because they realized the potential it had. I see that trend not only continuing, but accelerating. Look for some major investment in mRNA technology from some of the key players in Pharma (i.e. just look at a couple of Sanofi's recent announcements regarding mRNA and acquisitions...)

 

[Not Sure]

Short of the hype and later fully disproven as false claims of the "link" between vaccines and autism, I can't think of any either off the top of my head.

Fully agree that it seems like any vaccine side effects tend to manifest in the short term after vaccination, rather than years down the road

There is a trust fund established along time ago to compensate people who have been injured by vaccines

About the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | HRSA

The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (PDF - 312 KB), as amended, created the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP), a no-fault alternative to the traditional tort system. It provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines. Even in cases in which...

www.hrsa.gov

I think it’s a personal choice , roll your dice one way or another.

 

[abc]

Do you honestly think that the Chinese Communist Party will be openly forthcoming with the complete amount of information needed to conduct an accurate investigation into the true origins of COVID?

I would put about as much believability into the truth of the information they release to the World as I put in their early on believability of their death counts from COVID for a long time being at less than 10,000.

Communist country not being transparent is nothing new.

But just because the information isn't available doesn't means the hypothesis of man-made vaccine is TRUE.

Those are two unrelated things.

Further more, remember there's been many scaremongering story going on about the Soviet "communist evils" during the cold war years. Some of them were later (after the Berlin wall fell) reveal to be true. But some of them were just made up.

 

[machski]

Do you honestly think that the Chinese Communist Party will be openly forthcoming with the complete amount of information needed to conduct an accurate investigation into the true origins of COVID?

I would put about as much believability into the truth of the information they release to the World as I put in their early on believability of their death counts from COVID for a long time being at less than 10,000.

One these lines, given the technology available today, how is it that they haven't been able to genetically trace this virus back to it's first leap to humans yet? We should by now have a good indication of jump off species, but nope, nothing on that front. Makes an engineered virus much more plausible now. But regardless, China was the origin vector and they won't release enough to the rest of us whether it be manufactured and accidental release or natural jump to fully find the origin. They should be severely penalized by the rest of the world for that given the economic disruption globally. Having been able to trace the first human vector could very well have helped with treatments especially.

 

[2Planker]

They've been studied and researched for several decades now. Just because it hasn't been commercially used doesn't mean it is really "new". Clinical trials of various mRNA vaccines have been going on for about a decade even in humans. If there were long-term safety impacts of mRNA vaccine technology itself, we'd very likely have known about it by now (unless it is something that takes 20-30 years to show up, which is extremely unlikely given how the mRNA vaccine actually works).

Honestly mRNA is one of the most promising and exciting advances in vaccine technology in ages. Not long before COVID there were some companies starting to make some significant investments in it because they realized the potential it had. I see that trend not only continuing, but accelerating. Look for some major investment in mRNA technology from some of the key players in Pharma (i.e. just look at a couple of Sanofi's recent announcements regarding mRNA and acquisitions...)

They've been studied and researched for several decades now. Just because it hasn't been commercially used doesn't mean it is really "new". Clinical trials of various mRNA vaccines have been going on for about a decade even in humans. If there were long-term safety impacts of mRNA vaccine technology itself, we'd very likely have known about it by now (unless it is something that takes 20-30 years to show up, which is extremely unlikely given how the mRNA vaccine actually works).

Honestly mRNA is one of the most promising and exciting advances in vaccine technology in ages. Not long before COVID there were some companies starting to make some significant investments in it because they realized the potential it had. I see that trend not only continuing, but accelerating. Look for some major investment in mRNA technology from some of the key players in Pharma (i.e. just look at a couple of Sanofi's recent announcements regarding mRNA and acquisitions...)

Look at Moderna stock (MRNA) over the last 16 months.
March 2020 it was around $25/share. Today it hit $386/share.

 

[deadheadskier]

Pfizer must be jealous. Stock closed at $45.68 today. It really hasn't moved much. Was about $42 around the time it got it's EUA.

 

[cdskier]

Pfizer must be jealous. Stock closed at $45.68 today. It really hasn't moved much. Was about $42 around the time it got it's EUA.

Not particularly surprising considering the vaccine is really BioNTech's and not Pfizer's. Pfizer just helped with logistics, manufacturing, and regulatory type stuff. BioNTech's stock is through the roof just like Moderna...

 

[machski]

Not particularly surprising considering the vaccine is really BioNTech's and not Pfizer's. Pfizer just helped with logistics, manufacturing, and regulatory type stuff. BioNTech's stock is through the roof just like Moderna...

I would also guess the number of shares out there of Pfizer vastly outnumber both BioNTech and Moderna's. Plus, Pfizer is an established big pharm with much broader product lines so one successful vaccine wouldn't necessarily move their price needle. On the other hand, this is Moderna's first approved vaccine I believe. That would move their price needle quite drastically, going from pure R&D company to a company pumping out product.

 

[drjeff]

I would also guess the number of shares out there of Pfizer vastly outnumber both BioNTech and Moderna's. Plus, Pfizer is an established big pharm with much broader product lines so one successful vaccine wouldn't necessarily move their price needle. On the other hand, this is Moderna's first approved vaccine I believe. That would move their price needle quite drastically, going from pure R&D company to a company pumping out product.

When you consider that some of Pfizer's drug and OTC health products they manufacture include Advil, Celebrex, Diflucan, Robitussin, Viagra, Chapstick, Preparation H and Chantix, certainly agree that the effects on their stock price shouldn't be as dramatic as the effect on Moderna who basically is just focused on MRNA based therapies and vaccines in it's just over a decade since it's been a company