VT proposing restrictions on Short Term rentals

[cdskier]

That aside, as to the argument that is raised, and it is not necessarily MY perspective, is that when one rents out a home on VRBO or for short-term rentals that is one less home that is being rented to someone for residential purposes.

I'm always a bit skeptical of that argument. First of all, if you're going to have a property that would be a candidate for renting to someone for residential purposes, that means you don't plan to use it at all yourself. So now we're talking about someone who purely owns property merely to rent it. Is that really a significant portion of the rental inventory on VRBO/AirBnB/etc around vacation areas? Maybe it is, but I've always thought the majority of what you see for short term rentals are properties where owners want to use it some weeks themselves and rent it out others.

And I'm always a bit amused as well about all the people against short-term rentals in the first place. Short-term rentals aren't new. They've been around for ages via real-estate brokers (or even directly by owners). VRBO/AirBnB simply offered a new platform that was cheaper than real-estate companies and more modern and efficient (and also happens to be cheaper for the consumer often times as well). It is called evolution. People need to embrace change, not try to stop it. This is quite similar to cities trying to stop Uber or Lyft type of services.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Might make it more likely for me to buy a place in VT - after their values crash

 

[kingslug]

Theyre building places all over VT..to rent out. So its ok for company XYZ to build lets say 4 townhomes..like they are doing next to the Edelwiese deli, but its not ok for the average person to buy a place and rent it out? This is BS and will never pass.

 

[jimmywilson69]

you might be right, but one thing is for certain. You as a 2nd home property owner have no voice...

 

[kingslug]

If it came down to it..we just would never rent it then. We rent it out sparingly now any way. We don't have to. Last years rentals paid for the new floors we put in. No further plans for any renovations anyway. But..how will they differntiate between us and some guy that owns a small company that builds condos to rent. If they make it so you have to be a corporation to do this..ok..Kingslug real estate is born.
Again..its BS.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I'd rent from King Slug Rental

 

[kingslug]

No prob.
We even looked at SB properties for the hell of it..everyone is trying to cash in these days. Prices up 20%. I have a feeling after this is all over..a lot of people are going to go "why did I buy this thing" ..and then the sell off will begin. What goes up..eventually comes down.

 

[jimmywilson69]

The entire country is likely in another real estate bubble. Residential anyways. Commercial, especially office space, is F'd.

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm always a bit skeptical of that argument. First of all, if you're going to have a property that would be a candidate for renting to someone for residential purposes, that means you don't plan to use it at all yourself. So now we're talking about someone who purely owns property merely to rent it. Is that really a significant portion of the rental inventory on VRBO/AirBnB/etc around vacation areas? Maybe it is, but I've always thought the majority of what you see for short term rentals are properties where owners want to use it some weeks themselves and rent it out others.

And I'm always a bit amused as well about all the people against short-term rentals in the first place. Short-term rentals aren't new. They've been around for ages via real-estate brokers (or even directly by owners). VRBO/AirBnB simply offered a new platform that was cheaper than real-estate companies and more modern and efficient (and also happens to be cheaper for the consumer often times as well). It is called evolution. People need to embrace change, not try to stop it. This is quite similar to cities trying to stop Uber or Lyft type of services.

I don't support the bill, but I do absolutely support the argument that VRBO etc has contributed greatly to housing shortages in vacation areas. Such services vastly simplify things for owners for everything from booking, to insurance, to cleaning. The insurance is a big one because my understanding is that if your unit is damaged, VRBO response and resolution is very quick vs using some local real estate company like in the past who simply don't have the economics of scale on their side to handle problems as easily.

I'd love to see the stats of STR vs LTR or Seasonal Rentals today vs 25 years ago. I know as I've looked at STRs in Stowe the past couple of seasons, I've seen properties that I used to know were year round rentals or typical ski bum seasonal properties from when I was a resident in town. Talk to any long time business owners in town and they will tell you they have a far more difficult time finding staff today vs 25 years ago and the number reason for this is lack of affordable housing. Same is true of owners of businesses on Cape Cod I used to work at seasonally. VRBO and its resulting removal of properties from the LTR pool shares a lot of the blame.

I know some cities have the same issue and have responded by restricting the total amount of STR units available via permitting. Portland, ME would be one of them. There's a lengthy wait-list to get a permit. Boston has them too and there it's specifically designed to prevent large investors from buying up long term rentals and converting them to STR properties.

I don't think someone like the people on AZ who rent out their one vacation property a few weeks a year to help offset their expenses is the issue. They're still using their place, so this bill is bogus for the impact it would have on them. But doing something to limit larger investors from taking up multiple properties they have no intention of using? Something very much does need to be done about that. Perhaps a higher rooms and meals tax to either discourage the practice or that generates enough proceeds to build more affordable housing for locals.

 

[ss20]

The entire country is likely in another real estate bubble. Residential anyways. Commercial, especially office space, is F'd.

Yep, and I'd argue that some urban places are going to be a real bargin if you're renting. NYC average rent is still down by 17% compared to last year.

It's very interesting. While we may go "back to normal", a good chunk of the world we lived in on March 1, 2020, is gone forever. So much change at the macro level so fast. Peak oil, rural/suburban growth not seen since post-WWII, the rise of telecommuting. Gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[kingslug]

At the bagel store in Hunter a local that works at Hunter says it has impacted his ability to hire season employees..no affordable housing left.

 

[Hawk]

I am too OCD to rent out a place where I would stay. Only could do it if i never planned to use the place. As an investment, I don’t think VT makes sense. My place at magic is inflation adjusted probably worth the same as it was 30 years ago. A buddy at sugarbush just sold his house that he built 15 years ago at a loss. Granted, he overbuilt. But the values i see a lot of places don’t seem to appreciate. Maybe you can make money if you buy and rent out to eventually pay your mortgage. But I wouldn’t count on appreciation. My advice to people is only to buy if you will use and enjoy it. Too much of a hassle otherwise.

Are you kidding me. Go look at the prices right now at sugarbush. The market has never been hotter. I know at least 5 people who have sold for way above what they paid. A condo in my building sold this week for $217K that was bought for $140K 5 years ago. The house up the street that was bought 7 years ago for $550K sold for $1.2M. The market is insane. I am not saying to Buy right now but if you are selling. OMG.

 

[cdskier]

I don't support the bill, but I do absolutely support the argument that VRBO etc has contributed greatly to housing shortages in vacation areas. Such services vastly simplify things for owners for everything from booking, to insurance, to cleaning. The insurance is a big one because my understanding is that if your unit is damaged, VRBO response and resolution is very quick vs using some local real estate company like in the past who simply don't have the economics of scale on their side to handle problems as easily.

I'd love to see the stats of STR vs LTR or Seasonal Rentals today vs 25 years ago. I know as I've looked at STRs in Stowe the past couple of seasons, I've seen properties that I used to know were year round rentals or typical ski bum seasonal properties from when I was a resident in town. Talk to any long time business owners in town and they will tell you they have a far more difficult time finding staff today vs 25 years ago and the number reason for this is lack of affordable housing. Same is true of owners of businesses on Cape Cod I used to work at seasonally. VRBO and its resulting removal of properties from the LTR pool shares a lot of the blame.

I know some cities have the same issue and have responded by restricting the total amount of STR units available via permitting. Portland, ME would be one of them. There's a lengthy wait-list to get a permit. Boston has them too and there it's specifically designed to prevent large investors from buying up long term rentals and converting them to STR properties.

I don't think someone like the people on AZ who rent out their one vacation property a few weeks a year to help offset their expenses is the issue. They're still using their place, so this bill is bogus for the impact it would have on them. But doing something to limit larger investors from taking up multiple properties they have no intention of using? Something very much does need to be done about that. Perhaps a higher rooms and meals tax to either discourage the practice or that generates enough proceeds to build more affordable housing for locals.

There's a lot of factors at work here. Consumer behavior has changed as well (a lot of that has to do with technology). It is far easier to find a rental thanks to technology. I can sit at home and look at dozens/hundreds of options from the comfort of my couch. Years ago you had to either visit the area or take a bit of a gamble through a real-estate agent describing what you were looking for and hoping you got what you wanted. As a result people would often go with the "known" of simply using a lodge/inn/motel, etc because they could expect a consistent experience. Now there's a shift in demand with more people wanting various STR options. A lot of people no longer simply want a traditional hotel/motel/inn/lodge experience. They want room to spread out with their families. They want a kitchen to be able to do their own cooking instead of always going out to eat, etc. Blaming VRBO/AirBnB on a lack of affordable housing is foolish and short-sighted. Did they create demand for STR? Or was the demand always lurking and they just recognized that and capitalized on the opportunity? I don't like the idea of seemingly punishing success.

Now if you want to limit people using STR purely as a business (i.e. specifically targeting those larger investors with multiple properties), then I'm fine with finding some way to do that (as long as you can also protect individual owners that are just offsetting some of their own expenses via STR). If an individual owner can get more for their own property via STR instead of LTR, I don't have an issue with that though. I don't think it should be an indvidual property owner's responsibility to offer cheap affordable housing options. That property owner has expenses and bills to pay too. I do agree a lack of affordable housing in resort communities can be an issue, but we need to find the right solution to deal with it. Simply trying to restrict STR is not the right way. Demand for STR clearly is strong. Cutting off supply will just create other issues (one of which could be consumers choosing to take their demand to other states/communities/resorts).

 

[Hawk]

I will never rent my place to anyone. I am up all year round and have way to many personal things in there that I value. I also paid it off a long time ago so it is only the condo fees and taxes. BUT I really hate that the legislature would pass something like this. It hurts the smaller guy. Also who says that the second home owners have a responsibility to house mountain employees? Isn't that the responsibility of the multi-millionaire owners?

 

[cdskier]

Are you kidding me. Go look at the prices right now at sugarbush. The market has never been hotter. I know at least 5 people who have sold for way above what they paid. A condo in my building sold this week for $217K that was bought for $140K 5 years ago. The house up the street that was bought 7 years ago for $550K sold for $1.2M. The market is insane. I am not saying to Buy right now but if you are selling. OMG.

I completely agree. Was just having this conversation on a lift this weekend with someone. Even the cost of building new has shot way up. The guy I was talking to said he actually had to substantially increase the insurance on his house here in the valley because he could never rebuild it for what it was previously insured for.

I will never rent my place to anyone. I am up all year round and have way to many personal things in there that I value. I also paid it off a long time ago so it is only the condo fees and taxes. BUT I really hate that the legislature would pass something like this. It hurts the smaller guy. Also who says that the second home owners have a responsibility to house mountain employees? Isn't that the responsibility of the multi-millionaire owners?

I essentially agree. Renting to someone I implicitly trust is the only exception I would make. I've historically (not this year) rented my condo 1 weekend a year to one of my cousin's and his family. That's it. I would never trust strangers with all my personal belongings. Insurance is irrelevant if there are personal things that you can't replace. And I so agree with your last sentiment. Not sure why some people think second home-owners have this responsibility at their own expense. It just makes absolutely no sense.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I don't understand this at all. IMO short term rentals are safer than hotels where more people are located. and you really impact the people who own the 2nd homes. And why now, so far down the path of things starting to come back up?

It has nothing to do with COVID19 & everything to do with government wanting more tax revenue.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I love Vermont for the beauty, weather, serenity, and of course, the skiing. Heck 80% of the people I encounter are wonderful too. But their politics from the local level to the top are the most batshit crazy out of all 50 states but is able to fly under the radar about it given its small population (speaking of...are they dead last now?...I know Wyoming has been booming).

I think of this occasionally, and I think Hawaii can give Vermont a run for its' money, but yeah, definitely among the most extremist in terms of far-left ideology taking over government. Idaho would be my choice for the far-right version. Neither extreme is a good thing when it has complete control.

 

[Hawk]

Excuse my ignorance....What kind of taxes do VBRO and Air B&B pay in VT vs Hotels and B&B's? I really have no idea.

 

[parahelia]

Are you kidding me. Go look at the prices right now at sugarbush. The market has never been hotter. I know at least 5 people who have sold for way above what they paid. A condo in my building sold this week for $217K that was bought for $140K 5 years ago. The house up the street that was bought 7 years ago for $550K sold for $1.2M. The market is insane. I am not saying to Buy right now but if you are selling. OMG.

I think it's happening in ski towns everywhere, too. We have a 2BR condo at Sunday River, bought in 2016 - one of the many built in the Les Otten days. Cheap construction, no frills, but super convenient. Similar condos are now being listed for over 300K which seems just bananas for old buildings with deferred maintenance galore (more than double what we paid!) I guess the smart move is to cash in on the fever and sell, but we like the place and didn't buy it as an investment in anything other than easier weekend trips. In this context, it's not surprising that Sunday River accelerated the fancy new Merrill Hill development, lots of buyers these days.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Wonder on the slim chance that this passes, if VT will have the same level of "enforcement" on this as they have done with Covid travel quarantine restrictions.... basically none....

Oh no, look to other places as your guide. It will happen if it passes. This is given an "umbrella" name, but the reality is it's designed to specifically target AirBNB & VRBO. That's all you need because if you take out those 2 players you eliminate a really decent chunk of this market. Alternatively, it could be BS legislation being used to bring them to the table and easier swallow higher taxes through their e-platforms in future legislation, which, IMO I wouldnt rule out that that's the real goal here & this is just Vermont's opening move at the chess board.