Where are the moguls? A brief look at the demise of moguls.

[bigbog]

I think the inconsistent temperatures in southern NewEngland is the culprit. Warmer days with cold nights..plus I think frankm938's right about how some skiers will scrape the face like boarders on the steeper pitched trails/lines...
just my $.01

 

[skiadikt]

maybe it's a chicken or the egg thing, but i'm wondering if there's any correlation between the demise of late season skiing at k and demise of bump skiing. may skiing at k was always the domain of bump skiers. now the season is shorter by almost a month and they brutally groom superstar right up til closing day never letting good bumps form.

 

[Greg]

O.K. this makes sense to me. So it's basically a way to ski bumps when the freeze/rain thaw cycles happen instead of just making laps on crowded groomers. I sometimes forget how the weather can shut off natural terrain back east. If I skied at Sundown a nice dedicated bump run would probably keep it interesting.

Right. And seeding bumps at a place like Sundown is even more critical due to even less natural snow than a place like Killington. Secondly, at a feeder hill like Sundown, there are just not enough accomplished skiers that turn quickly enough for good bumps to form. That can probably be said for most ski areas actually. I feel modern equipment has made skiing easier for the masses and increases the number of low intermediates on the more advanced trails. Bumps form when skiers follow each others tracks so if most of the people on the trail aren't turning quickly, big crappy sweeper bumps form.

This even happened at Killington this spring. The base was so pinned downed and all the air squeezed out throughout a season of brutal grooming that even when they didn't groom, it was almost too late and the only bumps that formed were spaced out sluff piles. Seeding in late March, early April and leaving the run alone would solve that problem. Sugarbush on the other hand had a lot of trails that had bumps for several weeks. Sure, you need to wait out the morning, but once things softened......money!

So I would say seeding bumps is most critical early and late season when natural snowfall is minimal.

Another question: Why do so many not like skiing big fast bumps. I like them a lot, like a hybrid of bump skiing and just going fast. Chair 1 @ LL and Pali @ a-basin are prime examples of this kind of skiing. Back East mittersill @ Cannon or maybe Top Gun@ SR would be examples of spaced bumps that are fun to fly through.

AKA GS bumps. Fun here and there, but not as fun as a tight zipper. Part of the draw of bump skiing is the up and down A&E motion. It's a good feeling and when it first clicks, I've always compared it to the feeling you got as a progressing intermediate when you first starting link turns and rebounded from turn to turn. Same feeling but different, but equally as addictive. More spaced out bumps mean less A&E so they're sort of a tease. Good for throwing down cheesy airs though!

maybe it's a chicken or the egg thing, but i'm wondering if there's any correlation between the demise of late season skiing at k and demise of bump skiing. may skiing at k was always the domain of bump skiers. now the season is shorter by almost a month and they brutally groom superstar right up til closing day never letting good bumps form.

Very, very good observation and probably pretty accurate. Hopefully the shift in favor of bumps continues and maybe we'll get a longer season out of the deal too.

Also, I want to comment on the misconception that someone who's good on a seeded bump run is suddenly going to flail around a natural bump run. I call major bullshit on that one. Once someone has reached a certain level of proficiency of bump skiing and all the major element are there - deep absorption, hips/hands forward on extension, tight stance and quiet upper body, you can be sure he/she will rip any bumps, seeded or not. Seeded bumps just make it a bit easier (but not much) for a beginner and let more advanced bumpers hone in on the skills mentioned above. Most people that crack on seeded bumps probably can't really ski them nor natural bumps all that well.

 

[MogulQueen]

This is strictly an east coast snowboard skier thing and complete bullshit. I have never once heard of people bitching about snowboarders in the bumps out here. There no truth to argument. A bad skier wrecks bumps just as much as a bad snowboarder. Bumps form over 75% of the hill here when its not a pow day, everyone gets pretty good at em.

This is strictly an argument for Jersey folk like Frank M from the east coast, who probably watch some other Joey beater down Mountain Creek and clearly know better.

I think the difference here is that in the east, we don't have the luxury of bumps on 75% of our terrain. With that being said, moguls are precious and to have someone on a snowboard mow them down is dissapointing. Most mogul skiers will seach the mountain to find the moguls and when we do, we all work on them to get a nice line. It sucks when all that work is done and a snowboarder shaves them out in one run. I'm not saying that snowboarders are not welcome, but I do think there can be some thought especially if they see a bunch of mogul skiers taking one line down. And when I tell you there may only be one line for the day, even at a mountain like Killington, I'm am being very literal.

 

[St. Bear]

This is strictly an east coast snowboard skier thing and complete bullshit. I have never once heard of people bitching about snowboarders in the bumps out here. There no truth to argument. A bad skier wrecks bumps just as much as a bad snowboarder. Bumps form over 75% of the hill here when its not a pow day, everyone gets pretty good at em.

This is strictly an argument for Jersey folk like Frank M from the east coast, who probably watch some other Joey beater down Mountain Creek and clearly know better.

This is just ignorant........

.....everybody knows that Mountain Creek doesn't have any moguls.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

i didnt say he wasnt aloud to ride his snowboard in the moguls, i said that if he doesnt like them, he should stay out of them. and snowboards do wreck moguls (that doesnt mean snowboarding isnt just as fun and it doesnt mean that snowboarders are bad people) its just the way you control speed when skiing bumps is through absorbtion (the deeper you go the more you slow down) in order to control speed in the bumps on a snowboard, you need to skid down the backside and push snow into the face of the next bump.

Bad skiers and snowboarder wreck moguls. Not just snowboarders, it's just like bad skiers and bad snowboarders scrap the tops of from groomers. It's not a snowboarder vs skiing thing it's above average snowboarders and skiers vs. horrific Joeys on snowboards and skis. However over time it doesn't matter who is skiing or snowboarding, this is the east coast and everything turns to ice and or gets played out eventually. Lack of snowfall, the need for snowmaking, and the amount of people on the hill are all culprits.

 

[witch hobble]

Look at Okemo. I grew up skiing there and you had ONE bump run. ONE. It was Sel's Choice. Occasionally they'd let bumps form on Ledges and a few other trails, but they were mowed down frequently.

Don't forget Upper Chief. I am also a COO (child of Okemo).

Zipper lines are labor intensive these days, and there is not too much demand from the general public for them. I'm amazed at the bump enthusiasm on this board.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

I think the difference here is that in the east, we don't have the luxury of bumps on 75% of our terrain. With that being said, moguls are precious and to have someone on a snowboard mow them down is dissapointing. Most mogul skiers will seach the mountain to find the moguls and when we do, we all work on them to get a nice line. It sucks when all that work is done and a snowboarder shaves them out in one run. I'm not saying that snowboarders are not welcome, but I do think there can be some thought especially if they see a bunch of mogul skiers taking one line down. And when I tell you there may only be one line for the day, even at a mountain like Killington, I'm am being very literal.

Why don't they dedicate area's of moguls to just skiers? Seems like a simple fix to me.

Again, bad skiers can do just as much damage as a snowboarder.

 

[Greg]

I'm not sure whether snowboarders actually wreck moguls or not. I can't say I've ever seen one totally decimate a bump line in one pass. I have to imagine that several passes by a boarder or group of boarders would change the characteristics of the line though.

If it is somehow proven that snowboards do wreck moguls, I don't buy into the argument that crappy skiers do equally as much damage. I do think that snowboards ultimately remove more snow than skis despite the counter-argument that ski have two edges digging in. When a board is side-slipping down a bump, it's basically plowing the snow into to the face of the next bump. It seems to me on skis that some of the snow sorta flows over the skis, not building up underneath them.

What's more annoying about younger skiers and riders in over their heads on a bump run is their propensity to just camp out in a trough.

 

[Greg]

I'm amazed at the bump enthusiasm on this board.

You're obviously new here! :lol:

Seriously, welcome witch hobble!!!

 

[MogulQueen]

I'm not sure whether snowboarders actually wreck moguls or not. I can't say I've ever seen one totally decimate a bump line in one pass. I have to imagine that several passes by a boarder or group of boarders would change the characteristics of the line though.

If it is somehow proven that snowboards do wreck moguls, I don't buy into the argument that crappy skiers do equally as much damage. I do think that snowboards ultimately remove more snow than skis despite the counter-argument that ski have two edges digging in. When a board is side-slipping down a bump, it's basically plowing the snow into to the face of the next bump. It seems to me on skis that some of the snow sorta flows over the skis, not building up underneath them.

What's more annoying about younger skiers and riders in over their heads on a bump run is their propensity to just camp out in a trough.

The degree to which a snowboarder can do damage to a mogul line depends on the conditions. I will agree that it won't take one pass from a snowboarder in icy fim conditions, but for the soft days, it doesn't take much. I have experienced it first hand. I think the best solution is, for the snowboarders to form their own line and skiers form their line. Why would that be so difficult? There is usuall plenty of room on the mountain. I'm sure they would prefer the challenge of snowboard formed bumps as opposed to ski bumps. In my opinion there is a difference. You can definately tell when there has been a lot of snowboard traffic.

 

[4aprice]

Zipper lines are labor intensive these days, and there is not too much demand from the general public for them. I'm amazed at the bump enthusiasm on this board.

Really? The bumped trails at my home mountain always have traffic on them. Many times when they ice up due to what ever reason they freshen them up with a coating of good dry manmade snow. Doesn't seem that labor intensive to me, costly maybe but not labor intensive.

I'm hopeing we are a segment of the skiing/riding population that the resorts won't ignore. I think theres room at most mountains to cater to everyone. Camelback has 33 trails, about 5 have been taken for the terrain park, 1 for racing. 2 or 2 1/2 trails for moguls (one is wide enough for moguls and groomed) leave 25 groomers or approximately 75% of the mountain. From my perspective that fits in nicely with the percentage of people who enjoy moguls.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[bvibert]

Really? The bumped trails at my home mountain always have traffic on them.

The bumps at Sundown always have a fair amount of traffic on them, and it's not just the maniacs from this site.

 

[jaywbigred]

I think that the right snowboarder can get down a mogul run without doing any "damage" to the lines.

I also think it takes a much more elite level boarder to do this.

In other words, it takes a less skilled skier to get down the mogul run without damaging the lines.

Of course the boarder has to learn somewhere, and if the mountains had more mogul runs, and more low-angle runs at that, which has been argued for in this thread and elsewhere, everyone (skiers and boarders) would get more practice, everyone would be better, and the lines on the primo runs would be that much more improved.

The problem is, with bump runs so hard to come by, people get protective of their bumps, and hate to see "beginner"** riders of both disciplines ruin lines.

**for these "mogul ruining" arguments, let say beginners are skiers in lower than 65th percentile of "ability" (if such a thing can be quantified), whereas for boarders it probably means lower than the 85th or 90th percentile.

 

[Greg]

I think that the right snowboarder can get down a mogul run without doing any "damage" to the lines.

I also think it takes a much more elite level boarder to do this.

In other words, it takes a less skilled skier to get down the mogul run without damaging the lines.

Of course the boarder has to learn somewhere, and if the mountains had more mogul runs, and more low-angle runs at that, which has been argued for in this thread and elsewhere, everyone (skiers and boarders) would get more practice, everyone would be better, and the lines on the primo runs would be that much more improved.

The problem is, with bump runs so hard to come by, people get protective of their bumps, and hate to see "beginner"** riders of both disciplines ruin lines.

**for these "mogul ruining" arguments, let say beginners are skiers in lower than 65th percentile of "ability" (if such a thing can be quantified), whereas for boarders it probably means lower than the 85th or 90th percentile.

Quality post. I think you sum it all up quite well, especially the part I bolded. I also think that in addition to better lines, there would be more overall demand.

 

[WWF-VT]

Can someone please explain how less skilled skiiers or boarders "damage" and "ruin" mogul lines? Whether you are a newbie or pro you are going over the same snow. I have never skied a "seeded" mogul run but have certainly skied a helluva lot of trails with moguls at Sugarbush and you just ski whatever line you take down a trail.

 

[Greg]

Can someone please explain how less skilled skiiers or boarders "damage" and "ruin" mogul lines? Whether you are a newbie or pro you are going over the same snow. I have never skied a "seeded" mogul run but have certainly skied a helluva lot of trails with moguls at Sugarbush and you just ski whatever line you take down a trail.

It happens when a skier or rider side-slips down the back-side (or is it front-side? I never get that right) with their sliding implement of choice fully or almost fully perpendicular to the fall line to scrub a lot of speed. The next less skilled slider comes along and follows the same approach. Before you know it.....wall bump!

The advanced bumpers take a more direct line by relying on A&E to control speed rather than sharp turns. Multiple passes by better skiers results in a tighter zipper. This is exactly why you tend to find better lines near the trail edges since it's typically the better skiers that are more comfortable skiing closer to the trees. You're fortunate to be a Sugarbush skier since there is a much higher overall caliber of skier there than some other places.

 

[SkiDork]

You're fortunate to be a Sugarbush skier since there is a much higher overall caliber of skier there than some other places.

Except of course Sundown

 

[Greg]

Except of course Sundown

Well, that goes without saying...

:razz:

 

[Glenn]

I can't say I've ever seen a lot of boarders on mogul trails. I skied Beartrap at Mt. Snow (practicing for Sundown) last season...and road that lift quite a bit. I can't really recall if I ever saw one boarder on that trail the entire season. Maybe 1 or 2?

I did see a number of boarders on bump runs on the North Face. I also saw a bunch of people on skies who weren't having much fun. I'm thinking they didn't get the "we're not grooming these trails for awhile" memo.

Oh, we need a "Who pushes more snow: skiers or boarders?" thread. :razz: