Will Auto Makers Ever Deliver the Ideal Ski Vehicle?

[mondeo]

No. VW makes an AWD diesel. They don't import it. In Europe, diesel is cheaper than gasoline. Here, diesel passenger car owners pay the truck hate tax. If they paid the same gasoline taxes as passenger cars, the fuel would be cheaper.

It's only 5 cents/gallon, it still wouldn't make up the difference. It has more to do with the mix of refineries in Europe being set up to produce more diesel than in the U.S.

 

[Geoff]

It's only 5 cents/gallon, it still wouldn't make up the difference. It has more to do with the mix of refineries in Europe being set up to produce more diesel than in the U.S.

It's the taxes, not the cost at the refinery. Look at the price of marine or AG diesel. It's the same as home heating fuel.

Diesel contains 30% more energy than gasoline. On the spot market, they're usually within 10% of each other. (Gasoline is $2.83 today, Diesel is $2.91). If the taxes were the same, diesel would almost always win. It loses in a cold winter when home heating oil spikes.

 

[Glenn]

I gassed up the other day. Diesel 10 cents more than premium. It's a shame they tax it so much. It's a great way save fuel without reinventing the wheel.

 

[bvibert]

It's a shame they tax it so much. It's a great way save fuel without reinventing the wheel.

Agreed. It seems like it wasn't that long ago that diesel was cheaper...

 

[mondeo]

It's the taxes, not the cost at the refinery. Look at the price of marine or AG diesel. It's the same as home heating fuel.

Diesel contains 30% more energy than gasoline. On the spot market, they're usually within 10% of each other. (Gasoline is $2.83 today, Diesel is $2.91). If the taxes were the same, diesel would almost always win. It loses in a cold winter when home heating oil spikes.

The problem with your logic is that it's wrong. Average gasoline tax in January was 48.1 cents/gallon, for diesel it was 53.1 cents. So, that makes the difference at the refinery greater than the tax. I lost the site, but the refinery cost for diesel is 62% of the end cost, for gas 66%. Tax was an additional percent on diesel, but so was distribution, and marketing, and the other category that I've forgotten. Take the cost of diesel at the pump, subtract 5 cents or so (varies by state,) and you have the cost it would be if the tax was the same. It's that simple.

And under any justification of a fuel tax, it makes sense to tax diesel at a higher rate specifically because it does contain more energy per unit volume. Diesel vehicles produce greater road maintenence costs per gallon and greater pollution (any measure that you want to go with works here.)

 

[mondeo]

I gassed up the other day. Diesel 10 cents more than premium. It's a shame they tax it so much. It's a great way save fuel without reinventing the wheel.

Except it doesn't save fuel. It saves volume, but not energy. Volume doesn't matter.

 

[Geoff]

The problem with your logic is that it's wrong. Average gasoline tax in January was 48.1 cents/gallon, for diesel it was 53.1 cents. So, that makes the difference at the refinery greater than the tax. I lost the site, but the refinery cost for diesel is 62% of the end cost, for gas 66%. Tax was an additional percent on diesel, but so was distribution, and marketing, and the other category that I've forgotten. Take the cost of diesel at the pump, subtract 5 cents or so (varies by state,) and you have the cost it would be if the tax was the same. It's that simple.

And under any justification of a fuel tax, it makes sense to tax diesel at a higher rate specifically because it does contain more energy per unit volume. Diesel vehicles produce greater road maintenence costs per gallon and greater pollution (any measure that you want to go with works here.)

The federal tax difference is about 6 cents. In Vermont, the state tax spread is 15 cents per gallon. It's a real diesel hate tax that reflects the anti-business policies of Vermont.

You'd think that rational public policy would be to encourage people to use the more fuel-efficient fuel. That's what Europe does. You have it exactly backwards.

 

[mondeo]

The federal tax difference is about 6 cents. In Vermont, the state tax spread is 15 cents per gallon. It's a real diesel hate tax that reflects the anti-business policies of Vermont.

You'd think that rational public policy would be to encourage people to use the more
fuel-efficient fuel. That's what Europe does. You have it exactly backwards.

So what you're arguing is that VW/Audi should produce an AWD diesel for that lucrative Vermont market? Brilliant. In the rest of the country, it's only 5 cents, as states, on average, tax diesel less. The national market matters, not so much the second smallest state in the country.

And it's not a more efficient fuel by any measure other than gas tank size and time to fill said tank. If you refine a barrel of crude into diesel, you'll get less than if you refine it into gasoline. On top of that, the lower heating value is actually lower (by about 1%) than gasoline. And direct injection takes out most of the comparative actual loss associated with gas engines by removing the throttle and giving better contol of combustion. Adding in the higher weight of diesel engines offsets the rest due to the higher cycle efficiency.

 

[Geoff]

So what you're arguing is that VW/Audi should produce an AWD diesel for that lucrative Vermont market? Brilliant. In the rest of the country, it's only 5 cents, as states, on average, tax diesel less. The national market matters, not so much the second smallest state in the country.

And it's not a more efficient fuel by any measure other than gas tank size and time to fill said tank. If you refine a barrel of crude into diesel, you'll get less than if you refine it into gasoline. On top of that, the lower heating value is actually lower (by about 1%) than gasoline. And direct injection takes out most of the comparative actual loss associated with gas engines by removing the throttle and giving better contol of combustion. Adding in the higher weight of diesel engines offsets the rest due to the higher cycle efficiency.

No.

I have little interest in owning a diesel beyond generic interest in interesting cars that have diesel engines. I don't trust them in -30F, they take forever to warm up, and I have previous life experience with fuel jell problems with flatland diesel. If I had a heated garage, I might have a different opinion.

...and if you want some diesel trivia, the brown UPS trucks are powered by an Italian inline 6 diesel from VM Motori. VM also has a diesel in the old Jeeps and Dodge Caravans sold on the export market.


And by your contorted logic, the entire US truck fleet would be running gasoline engines. They don't. I wonder why that is?

 

[ctenidae]

We should all have Sterling engines that run on rubbing acohol and birthday candles.

 

[Geoff]

We should all have Sterling engines that run on rubbing acohol and birthday candles.

I'm waiting for 100% ethanol so I can save money on my bar tab.

 

[mondeo]

And by your contorted logic, the entire US truck fleet would be running gasoline engines. They don't. I wonder why that is?

It's a completely different use case. The additional weight doesn't make up anywhere near the same percentage in a truck, making it mute, they've got a 12-16 gear transmission, the physical size of the engine is different, etc. Cars call for a wider power band, lighter engines, and higher power for a given displacement. An Atkinson cycle gas engine with direct injection would have the same (or slightly higher) efficiency as a comparable diesel. Essentially by definition.

Never mind the fact that if they all used gas, the refinery split would be so heavily tilted to gasoline that there would have to be significantly more cracking involved, driving up gas costs and making diesel cheaper.

 

[riverc0il]

Mating it to AWD would probably drop it to 38 instantly, add the fact that you're paying 15% more for diesel, and voila, worse than the Impreza.

This reasoning is ridiculous. The Impreza is going to get 37 MPG because Subie decreased the HP. You assume that a competitor would keep all specs the same. This is a thread about IDEALS not only changing one thing and keeping all things consistent. If VW or Subie came out with an AWD Hybrid or AWD Diesel, they could make it 40+ MPG highway by making other adjustments. Drop the HP or loose some weight and you could have a good utility wagon or CUV at 40 MPG highway.

Maybe it wouldn't be fun enough for you. So you have fair criticism that my "ideal" formula does not include fun. Everyone else in this thread seems to enjoy not having fuel efficient vehicles and not caring that the tech is there but they aren't being given better options. I just don't know what to think about that...

 

[AdironRider]

The tech is there, its just itd increase the cost of every vehicle out there to a point where noone would buy them. "The Center for Automotive Research projected bringing cars and trucks to a 56 miles per gallon CAFE standard would cost about $6,700 per vehicle." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/29/obama-unveils-sharp-incre_n_913485.html).

Ill take my 22mpg and way more capability, for 20 grand, opposed to a little sardine can that gets 40mpg but is going to fall apart as soon as you hit a dirt road. Again, those are my ideals. Mine are power and fun, yours seem to be efficiency and boredom.

And you can blame the feds for the weight problems. Mandated crumple zones, a million sensors, etc, all that shit weighs more than cars in the past. Your going to need to pass laws to reduce weight in vehicles, or pay more for advanced tech. The worst example of this is the mandated TPMS sensors (thanks to the good ol Ford Exploder and Firestone), which is mandated by law on all vehicles made from 07 onwards. Now I get a sweet blinking yellow light on the dash due to my 10ply 32" tires running 60psi. Thanks Uncle Sam. I appreciate that. You only added 20 useless pounds to my vehicle and increased its cost for nothing.

Also you clearly dont have kids. I think your fanatical obsession with MPG will go out the window one you have a couple little ones in the back screaming bloddy murder cause you wanted so save a couple cents in fuel driving them around. That is the appeal of SUVs. Its not a need thing, its a want. Most want something big and powerful with lots of capability and are willing to pay for it. Sure I could probably get around with a Fiesta or Civic, but I sure as hell dont want to deal with chains, shitty ground clearance, cramped quarters, and subpar performance that comes with high mpg all winter. Then I cant access trails come mud season, and oh yeah, no more towing my boat or my sleds anywhere. Screw that.

 

[Cannonball]

This reasoning is ridiculous. The Impreza is going to get 37 MPG because Subie decreased the HP. You assume that a competitor would keep all specs the same. This is a thread about IDEALS not only changing one thing and keeping all things consistent. If VW or Subie came out with an AWD Hybrid or AWD Diesel, they could make it 40+ MPG highway by making other adjustments. Drop the HP or loose some weight and you could have a good utility wagon or CUV at 40 MPG highway.

Maybe it wouldn't be fun enough for you. So you have fair criticism that my "ideal" formula does not include fun. Everyone else in this thread seems to enjoy not having fuel efficient vehicles and not caring that the tech is there but they aren't being given better options. I just don't know what to think about that...

I would buy this instantly. I don't give a F about fun in a car. A car is a tool to get me to the fun. A $20 bill isn't fun either....but it can create some.

 

[Glenn]

What do you drive Cannonball? I'm on the iPad and too lazy to scroll through this thread. :lol:

 

[Cannonball]

What do you drive Cannonball? I'm on the iPad and too lazy to scroll through this thread. :lol:

I drive a Tundra because I need a truck for work. I've driven a truck since I was 17 because I've needed one for work since then. I see vehicles strictly as a utilitarian tool.

My wife drives a CRV which is our ski vehicle. Due to her work, she can drive whatever, so we make her car our utilitarian vehicle that fills any gaps my truck leaves. I / we would love to buy an even more utilitarian vehicle like Riverc0il describes.

Edit: may also be worth mentioning that we always pay cash for our vehicles (no loan). So we are happy to put that considerable savings towards efficiencies in a vehicle (MPG, etc) but not towards frivolousness (extraneous power, etc). So I feel like we are a pretty good litmus for the type of car Riverc0il is describing. Just haven't found it.

 

[mondeo]

This reasoning is ridiculous. The Impreza is going to get 37 MPG because Subie decreased the HP. You assume that a competitor would keep all specs the same. This is a thread about IDEALS not only changing one thing and keeping all things consistent. If VW or Subie came out with an AWD Hybrid or AWD Diesel, they could make it 40+ MPG highway by making other adjustments. Drop the HP or loose some weight and you could have a good utility wagon or CUV at 40 MPG highway.

Maybe it wouldn't be fun enough for you. So you have fair criticism that my "ideal" formula does not include fun. Everyone else in this thread seems to enjoy not having fuel efficient vehicles and not caring that the tech is there but they aren't being given better options. I just don't know what to think about that...

You mean drop the power from its current rating that's already 10hp down on the Impreza? While adding weight? Right now they're very similar cars, in terms of size, power/weight, etc. The Impreza got there because it's an all new car, with a lower weight, CVT, new more efficient engine, etc. In short, it IS the definition of what you can do with a commercially viable car. They'll probably add direct injection in a couple years to squeeze a little more out of the engine, but 2 mpg on top of 37 is only worth about $80 every 15,000 miles. An extra couple thousand on the price of the car just doesn't trade once you start getting into the upper thirties, and with the Impreza, that's where you're at. And diesel simply doesn't work out for passenger vehicles in the U.S. The math doesn't lie.

 

[riverc0il]

You mean drop the power from its current rating that's already 10hp down on the Impreza? While adding weight? Right now they're very similar cars, in terms of size, power/weight, etc. The Impreza got there because it's an all new car, with a lower weight, CVT, new more efficient engine, etc. In short, it IS the definition of what you can do with a commercially viable car. They'll probably add direct injection in a couple years to squeeze a little more out of the engine, but 2 mpg on top of 37 is only worth about $80 every 15,000 miles. An extra couple thousand on the price of the car just doesn't trade once you start getting into the upper thirties, and with the Impreza, that's where you're at. And diesel simply doesn't work out for passenger vehicles in the U.S. The math doesn't lie.

What car are we talking about? You seem to continue to reference current cars. This thread isn't about current cars. What if Subie stuck a hybrid into the new Impreza? Then you have your HP, AWD, and boost MPG even more. What if VW stuck its AWD system into a Golf? Not as much of a weight penalty as its larger cars. And they could trim enough weight to offset the AWD system, I am sure. Bigger feats have been accomplished. What if WV swapped out the diesel for a hybrid and threw in the AWD? Let's not limit this conversation... lots of manufacturers have AWD systems and perhaps cars better suited to this type of conversion.

Going back to the Impreza example. that car is too small for most skiers and families. And in reference to MPG jumps, a better comparison is mid to high high 20s to jumping to low 40s (which is real world MPG on most AWD mid-sized vehicles vs real what TDI owners report). Not a great argument by using the Impreza as an example as most folks are not going to consider a car that small (though it does properly serve a segment and is good MPG for AWD). Even still, don't forget that most TDI owners report mid-40s highway with a light foot so the difference is going to be bigger than 2 MPG.

Though again, I ain't arguing against the Impreza. I am just saying that more can be done. Much more. 2 MPG is not worth fussing over, especially in the upper 30s. But 10+ MPG is worth fussing over. And when calculating out fuel cost savings, don't forget that today's prices are likely close to bottom line... prices will continue to increase over the lifetime of a car. And as fuel prices increase, the relative difference between diesel and gas decreases and the savings increases.

I recall rumors of Subie looking into Hybrid (perhaps in partnership with Toyota who they are already in bed with). So Subie certainly seems to think there might be something to a hybrid AWD system.

 

[mondeo]

I'm talking about current cars because that is what's known to be possible. You're ignoring the fact that adding technology increases cost. Diesel adds 2-5k, same for a hybrid, hybrids add weight and don't really help on the highway, DI adds cost, etc. The guys that decide what technology goes into cars are pretty good at this stuff, much better than anyone on this board. The Subaru was designed with all these things in mind. Look at the cars that have come out in the last couple years, after the design cycle had time to adjust to the run up in gas costs up through 2008. There's been a jump in the efficiency of everything. 10+ mpg isn't just left on the table, if it could be done for a reasonable price, it would be available. Organic improvements in efficiency will continue as technology matures and becomes more cost effective,and the trades will change as gas becomes more expensive. I wouldn't be surprised to see camless engines showing up in 5-10 years, which would offer pretty big benefits to efficiency but today would probably add 5-10k to the cost of the engine and be troublesome for maintenance. Carbon fiber will start to play a much bigger role, and the weights will start to come down, but right now it's still cost prohibitive.