Windham - Open Letter to Mgmt

[cdskier]

The main thing that is not mentioned is that Hunter on weekends is way overcrowded, and is to the point of dangerous! The exit of Windham skiers will only make this worse.

Also Hunter has consistently had issues this season with the six pack and they shut it down today around noon for "mechanical issues" with a big storm coming..........

Maybe Windham's management sent someone over to Hunter to sabotage their lift after reading the letter!

 

[catskillman]

The main thing that is not mentioned is that Hunter on weekends is way overcrowded, and is to the point of dangerous! The exit of Windham skiers will only make this worse.

Also Hunter has consistently had issues this season with the six pack and they shut it down today around noon for "mechanical issues" with a big storm coming..........

Just saw this on facebook -

Please be aware the Kaatskill Flyer will not be operational tomorrow 12/2/2019. Our lift maintenance crew is working diligently to fix the mechanical issue. Summit terrain will be accessible via F Lift from either B Lift or D Lift. Thank you, Hunter Mountain

 

[catskillman]

The main thing that is not mentioned is that Hunter on weekends is way overcrowded, and is to the point of dangerous! The exit of Windham skiers will only make this worse.

Also Hunter has consistently had issues this season with the six pack and they shut it down today around noon for "mechanical issues" with a big storm coming..........

Just saw this on facebook -
Please be aware the Kaatskill Flyer will not be operational tomorrow 12/2/2019. Our lift maintenance crew is working diligently to fix the mechanical issue. Summit terrain will be accessible via F Lift from either B Lift or D Lift. Thank you, Hunter Mountain

 

[JimG.]

I'm curious whether that insurance reason really is accurate though. To be fair, based on NSAA stats, more injuries (and fatalities) occur on trails rated as blue squares than on trails rated as diamonds.

Problem is the intermediate skiers who have issues on blues wind up getting badly hurt or worse on black and expert terrain. So everything has to be dumbed down.

 

[JimG.]

And now back to Windham...

It seems to me more than a few mountains are dragging their feet on opening this season.

Windham has no excuses after this current storm.

 

[Magna999]

And now back to Windham...

It seems to me more than a few mountains are dragging their feet on opening this season.

Windham has no excuses after this current storm.

Sadly, a view from their Main 6 pack showing the uncompleted new snowmaking on Whistler. I feel bad for them, and their limited crew who I know is doing what they can. Seem understaffed and overwhelmed.




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[kingslug]

Used to go to W..but switched to Hunter..found W boring.

 

[skiur]

View attachment 25705

Sadly, a view from their Main 6 pack showing the uncompleted new snowmaking on Whistler. I feel bad for them, and their limited crew who I know is doing what they can. Seem understaffed and overwhelmed.



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Pretty much every mountains snowmaking team is understaffed this year.

 

[crystalmountainskier]

Private equity cost cutting?
https://www.northcastlepartners.com/portfolio/windham-mountain-resort/

 

[drewfidelic]

I grew up skiing at Windham and think that some of the complaints in the open letter are unfair, and some of them are accurate statements of how the mountain has operated for years. Windham has almost always opened later and closed earlier than Hunter. Their snowmaking has never been nearly as good and they've never made as much snow.

But, I find that Windham feels more crowded than Hunter on a very busy day. Between F lift, Hunter West and now North, it's possible to avoid much of the crowding at Hunter. At Windham, it feels Moore difficult to avoid crowding. The only thing about Windham that feels like the Deer Valley of the east is its pass pricing. What about the experience at Windham (aside from possibly your slope side mansion) is luxurious or premium? I'd argue that the Windham passes aren't expensive enough to keep crowds away and return some of that private mountain feel.

While Windham has had a bad opening in good snowmaking weather, I think it's unfair to complain based on management cheapening out. Sure, they should have planned to have significant piping work completed before Thanksgiving, but you can't address the structural complaint that Windham is worse at making snow than Hunter without investing capital into upgrading the system. It's not a good look, but this is not from a lack of desire to open. Might it have been too ambitious to install a new snowmaking system on Whistler and move the quad off of Whistler at the same time?

Also, the idea that Windham has more actual vertical than Hunter is laughable. Windham's 1600' measurement is from the top of the East side to the bottom of the magic carpet (possibly the bottom of the parking lot.) GPS will show that it skis significantly shorter than 1600'. Just based on the lift stats, Westside 6 at Windham has a vertical rise of 1294'. The Kaatskill Flyer at Hunter climbs 1477'. (Even just combining the vertical rise of G and D lifts at Windham only totals 1434', and G lift's 1045' rise starts significantly below the top of D.)

Also, complaining that Windham is operating a relocated 1993 HS quad while comparing it to Hunter's high-speed lifts and identifying Hunter's Zephyr a 2011 lift? Zephyr is just the original 1987 Snowlite Express moved over. It's about as 2011 is as Windham's C-lift is a 2019 lift.

Since Windham has private equity as a significant owner, I would be shocked if they're not actively shopping to Alterra.

 

[Magna999]

I grew up skiing at Windham and think that some of the complaints in the open letter are unfair, and some of them are accurate statements of how the mountain has operated for years. Windham has almost always opened later and closed earlier than Hunter. Their snowmaking has never been nearly as good and they've never made as much snow.

But, I find that Windham feels more crowded than Hunter on a very busy day. Between F lift, Hunter West and now North, it's possible to avoid much of the crowding at Hunter. At Windham, it feels Moore difficult to avoid crowding. The only thing about Windham that feels like the Deer Valley of the east is its pass pricing. What about the experience at Windham (aside from possibly your slope side mansion) is luxurious or premium? I'd argue that the Windham passes aren't expensive enough to keep crowds away and return some of that private mountain feel.

While Windham has had a bad opening in good snowmaking weather, I think it's unfair to complain based on management cheapening out. Sure, they should have planned to have significant piping work completed before Thanksgiving, but you can't address the structural complaint that Windham is worse at making snow than Hunter without investing capital into upgrading the system. It's not a good look, but this is not from a lack of desire to open. Might it have been too ambitious to install a new snowmaking system on Whistler and move the quad off of Whistler at the same time?

Also, the idea that Windham has more actual vertical than Hunter is laughable. Windham's 1600' measurement is from the top of the East side to the bottom of the magic carpet (possibly the bottom of the parking lot.) GPS will show that it skis significantly shorter than 1600'. Just based on the lift stats, Westside 6 at Windham has a vertical rise of 1294'. The Kaatskill Flyer at Hunter climbs 1477'. (Even just combining the vertical rise of G and D lifts at Windham only totals 1434', and G lift's 1045' rise starts significantly below the top of D.)

Also, complaining that Windham is operating a relocated 1993 HS quad while comparing it to Hunter's high-speed lifts and identifying Hunter's Zephyr a 2011 lift? Zephyr is just the original 1987 Snowlite Express moved over. It's about as 2011 is as Windham's C-lift is a 2019 lift.

Since Windham has private equity as a significant owner, I would be shocked if they're not actively shopping to Alterra.

Agree on the positioning to Alterra and Frankly, I think that would be a great thing for future of this resort. Look at Hunter as an example.....


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[AndrewLamp]

Windham Mountain Updates Please

Woke up today to an Open Letter email from the Windham Mountain community with a rather on point open letter about customer sentiment and frustrations with their Mgmt. Anyone else receive this? Thoughts?


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I've been skiing Windham for some time now. I was downstate this weekend and was totally shocked to see heavy equipment on Whistler, and exposed water lines on the side of the trail. It looked more like a construction site. They had a small crew working, or attempting to dig holes to place the snow making machines. The ground was frozen, so no luck. Not sure how they will finish this job with the current cold temps and snow. Seems like they are about a month behind. Current weather is actually hurting the mountain...

Also, FYI, we stayed on the mountain and Windham was not making snow "since Thursday night" like they posted on Instagram. Even with a foot of fresh, they still need to turn the guns on. I'm a passholder so this is very disappointing. Add to that the promise of a new C lift and I'm really disappointed. Remember, they promoted all this last year and over the summer when we bought our passes and rented our houses. Yes, the mountain is not crowded, but the crowds will come and the area by C Lift has no service!

Anyone else feel like snowmaking and new lifts are at the bottom of their priority list. Like somewhere below new logo hats? Seems that the mountain is spending all their time on pushing triple play cards, and no time on cleaning up the mess on Whistler and getting C lift spinning. Sorry to be negative, but I spend a lot of money and get no updates from the mountain. Would love to know the plan.

 

[Funky_Catskills]

Pretty amazing to see Hunter used as a foil for Windham's problems.

What kind of bizzaro world are we living in now??

We at Hunter are the lowlife partiers.. Not Windhams foil...

 

[andrec10]

What kind of bizzaro world are we living in now??

We at Hunter are the lowlife partiers.. Not Windhams foil...

My My My, how the tables have turned....

 

[RichT]

Funny how for years we called Windham "The Vail of the Catskills" with all the Bodgner Mink ski jackets, BMW's and valet parking and now Hunter really is "The Vail of the Catskills"!!

 

[abc]

I never understand the anti-Vail talk.

Vail was never an "upscale resort". Nor did it pretend to be "exclusive" like Deer Valley.

It's pricy alright. But that's more a result of its popularity, "whatever the market would bear", so to speak. It's just a very well-rounded family resort. So it's in high demand, hence commands a high price. Much the same way as southern VT mountains are all so pricy due to high demand of the population density.

The actual "upscale" mountains are a few miles down the road at Aspen.

Sure, everyone is going on and on about "the affordability of skiing". But that doesn't mean EVERY mountain will be "affordable"! Vail basically went for "whatever the market will bear". In fact, Vail didn't use the high price to limit access, nor does it limit ticket sale as Deer Valley pretends.

I'm not a fan of Windham. But the few times I skied there, I didn't experienced any of the snobbery attitude people here are hinting at. Now, whether the complain has merit or not, I'm not in a position to judge. But I see nothing wrong comparing to Hunter. Hunter is THE mountain all other Catskill areas had to be compared to. Again, the crowd that everybody complain about are a result it's THE most diverse terrain and best snowmaking in the Cats.

That said, my impression is with drewfidelic, Windham is still just the way it has been. But then, maybe it needs to keep up?

 

[cdskier]

I'm not a fan of Windham. But the few times I skied there, I didn't experienced any of the snobbery attitude people here are hinting at.

Same here.

Now, whether the complain has merit or not, I'm not in a position to judge. But I see nothing wrong comparing to Hunter.

I see nothing wrong with comparing to Hunter either, but some of the comparisons were just plain silly. "Hunter just expanded terrain in 2018, Windham hasn't done it since 2016". Terrain expansions are rare. That was Hunter's first expansion in quite some time, so using it is silly. Same with the HS lift age comparison (which as someone else pointed out was factually incorrect anyway). As long as the lifts are still within their standard life-cycle range, you don't just replace them because your neighbor bought a new one. If I have a 2016 pickup with 60K miles and my neighbor buys a new 2020 model, that doesn't mean I need to run out and replace mine. The author of that letter seems to imply otherwise. Also a bit ironic that Hunter had lift problems right after that letter tried to say how much better they were.

The opening and closing comparisons were also silly as they have been that way for dare I say decades. For a number of years Belleayre was pretty consistently the last one in the Cats open (not sure if it is still the case as I don't follow the Cats as closely as I did 10 years ago). I remember skiing there numerous times in mid to late April when both Windham and Hunter were already closed.

The other complaints could have merit though and there's certainly the question of why they didn't have their projects completed already. Was it poor planning? Did they run into issues? Was their completion date all along not in line with the expectations from their user community? On the communications front at least, it certainly seems they should have done better.

 

[Funky_Catskills]

tl:dr...

All I can say as a Hunter resident.. The next move on up is Windham..
Better restaurants - nicer streets - ritzier houses - great mountain biking - smoother trails - bigger houses on the sides of those trails.

 

[abc]

"Better restaurants - nicer streets"...

I can see people go for that.

"ritzier houses - smoother trails - bigger houses on the sides of those trails"

Many would run as quickly away from those as they can!

 

[BenedictGomez]

Smoother trails is a positive thing? On an avid ski forum?