Crystal open letter addressing heavy crowds

[abc]

No matter how you look at it, with the new addition of all the Peak resorts, on top of Stowe and Okemo, Sugarbush doesn’t stand a chance.

Except for the (somewhat minority) skiers who are counting on going out west.

For those who travel to the west, Ikon is a legitimate competition. In the northeast? No contest.

Of course that could all change next season. Or the whole mega-pass business could all come crashing down in a couple years. That’s why I’m taking advantage of it now.

 

[Edd]

No matter how you look at it, with the new addition of all the Peak resorts, on top of Stowe and Okemo, Sugarbush doesn’t stand a chance.

Except for the (somewhat minority) skiers who are counting on going out west.

For those who travel to the west, Ikon is a legitimate competition. In the northeast? No contest.

Are you including access to Killington/Pico and the Boyne areas when you make that comparison? I understand it’s a limited number of days but most people don’t use them all.

 

[drjeff]

No matter how you look at it, with the new addition of all the Peak resorts, on top of Stowe and Okemo, Sugarbush doesn’t stand a chance.

Except for the (somewhat minority) skiers who are counting on going out west.

For those who travel to the west, Ikon is a legitimate competition. In the northeast? No contest.

Of course that could all change next season. Or the whole mega-pass business could all come crashing down in a couple years. That’s why I’m taking advantage of it now.

Agree.

Especially if you're looking at it not as a hard core skier/rider, but an "average" skier/rider who's going to make more single day trips with their pass than full weekends and/or Western trips. The number of reasonable day trip driving options, for the entire I-95 corridor population base from Boston on down to Washington DC, has EPIC the clear choice for the masses over the IKON.

And that's not me saying that the resorts on the EPIC are "better" than the resorts on the IKON, just purely a number of options, and closest to the I-95 population base perspective. I realize that that basic concept might seem a bit strange to the passionate members of AZ, however, for the "average" EPIC or IKON passholder, I'm guessing that that is a deciding factor.... How many places can I use my pass at closest to where I live?

 

[cdskier]

No matter how you look at it, with the new addition of all the Peak resorts, on top of Stowe and Okemo, Sugarbush doesn’t stand a chance.

Except for the (somewhat minority) skiers who are counting on going out west.

For those who travel to the west, Ikon is a legitimate competition. In the northeast? No contest.

I don't agree. For me most of the resorts in the Peak portfolio either do nothing for me or are too far away (i.e. Wildcat which I would love but just isn't realistic from NJ). So for me the way I see it is Epic means unlimited Stowe and Ikon means theoretically an unlimited Sugarbush plus days at K/Pico. For a NJ/NY skier that has no interest in S VT or Hunter, it boils down to whether you prefer Stowe or SB. Definitely not a "no contest" scenario as you put it.

For a Boston skier it may be a little closer as now Wildcat is an option, but on the flip side with Ikon you also have the Boyne resorts in the mix. Personally I'd still take a Sugarbush/Killington/Pico/SR/SL option over a Stowe/Wildcat option. (This is of course a theoretical assuming SB is unlimited on Ikon next year).

Of course if you like S VT terrain or want to limit your driving range, then I can see the Epic "no contest" argument more as they definitely win in S VT. But for people that regularly ski points north the comparison is nowhere near as clear as you make it sound.

 

[SnowRock]

I don't agree. For me most of the resorts in the Peak portfolio either do nothing for me or are too far away (i.e. Wildcat which I would love but just isn't realistic from NJ). So for me the way I see it is Epic means unlimited Stowe and Ikon means theoretically an unlimited Sugarbush plus days at K/Pico. For a NJ/NY skier that has no interest in S VT or Hunter, it boils down to whether you prefer Stowe or SB. Definitely not a "no contest" scenario as you put it.

For a Boston skier it may be a little closer as now Wildcat is an option, but on the flip side with Ikon you also have the Boyne resorts in the mix. Personally I'd still take a Sugarbush/Killington/Pico/SR/SL option over a Stowe/Wildcat option. (This is of course a theoretical assuming SB is unlimited on Ikon next year).

Of course if you like S VT terrain or want to limit your driving range, then I can see the Epic "no contest" argument more as they definitely win in S VT. But for people that regularly ski points north the comparison is nowhere near as clear as you make it sound.

I'd counter that even for the points north VT skier, its not that you have to like S.VT or Hunter, it is just great to have those options. Okemo or Snow for early season product, easy day trips to Hunter (where you can bail once the hordes show)... it makes Epic an attractive option even if you are a maniac like me that pretty regularly does a 5+ hour drive to Stowe. Its nice to have a number of options within 4 hours striking distance.

 

[WWF-VT]

If one is really honest, in what a ski operations looks at as what constitutes a "jewel", i.e. tickets sold and large daily yields per day per guest (rentals, mountain owned lodging, lessons, food and beverage, etc) I'm guessing that Stratton is the "jewel" in Alterra's eye for their current portfolio of East Coast wholely owned resorts....

No doubt that Sugarbush is way more of a "true skier's/riders mountain" but when you factor in the volume that Stratton does and the often rightly so reputation that Stratton has for attracting lots of folks with high incomes from the NYC, CT "Gold Coast" and Boston markets, and with the relatively compact operations center that it has, Stratton I'm suspecting keeps the big wigs at Alterra very happy

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FWIW - I don't know anyone from the Boston area ( except my periodontist - go figure ) that goes to or even talks about Stratton. It's a NY / CT destination. It's about the same drive time from the Boston metro area for better skiing at Sugarbush or Stowe.

 

[Hawk]

I totally disagree with Epic being better in any sense. Maybe for you day trippers from NY and NJ but not for me North of Boston. I ski on a regular basis at Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Killington, Sugarbush and sometimes Loon as I can skip out of work and be there in 1.5 hours. I don't ski Stratton. All epic would offer me is Stowe and Wildcat. I don't go to Attitash, Okemo, Mt Snow, Crotchet or Sunapee.
So last year, On top of skiing multiple days at SR and Killington, I skied Aspen and Squaw on my pass. This year I will ski Aspen, Squaw, Snowbird and Zermatt Matterhorn on my pass. In the overall sense if you look at all of the resorts offered in the West, I much prefer the resorts IKON has to offer. Majority of places out West that Epic has are secondary places.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

nyc based weekender/day tripper here. agree with hawk completely.

if i didnt go west, i would still do ikon, but would up from the base to the full. i'd still get things like the champlain card and the magic 4 pack.

i just dont like the epic resorts, except for stowe. stowe is too far to go every weekend. wildcat is too far to go more than once or twice a season. mount snow, okemo, and hunter do nothing for me. if they fell off the face of the earth the only effect on my life is that the places i do like to ski would get more crowded.

i also don't like vail's culture and dont want to support them.

 

[abc]

I'd counter that even for the points north VT skier, its not that you have to like S.VT or Hunter, it is just great to have those options. Okemo or Snow for early season product, easy day trips to Hunter (where you can bail once the hordes show)... it makes Epic an attractive option even if you are a maniac like me that pretty regularly does a 5+ hour drive to Stowe. Its nice to have a number of options within 4 hours striking distance.

Exactly!

Ikon is missing southern options.

Granted, northern VT/NH skiers don't have a habit of going south. But for any of us living south of VT/NH, there's the coastal powder options at Hunter/Mt Snow, which is happening with increasing frequency lately.

Mid-VT or above is pretty even between the 2.

 

[Zand]

The only metros where Epic is better than Nikon are Denver (and that's debatable) and NYC. Ikon is a better option literally anywhere else except maybe for Tahoe skiers. Sugarbush is close to Stowe in quality. Killington, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf are better than literally everything else on Epic in the east. Stratton sucks but on a weekday its the same as Mt Snow and Okemo. Loon sucks but whats the alternative for Epic...Crotched and Sunapee? LOL

Even in Denver unlimited Winter Park and Copper plus A-Basin, Aspen, and Steamboat put up a good fight against Vail, Breck, Keystone, Beaver Creek, and CB.

 

[jimmywilson69]

as a southcentral PA resident who's local hill got bought by Epic I have no choice... My epic pass will pay for itself with the 1 trip I took out west and 1 trip I have planned to Stowe. My wife loves Okemo, so we'll probably go there once this year too. That doesn't even count all of the days I ski "locally" so for me and many others (Central PA, Baltimore, DC) who ski the southcentral PA resorts. Epic is so much better. It'll be interesting to see if Ikon tries to purchase a feeder hill or two in the Mid-Atlantic. Not really anything they've done so far.

I'd love to take a trip to Steamboat again and take my family. That'd probably result in a situation where I'd buy an Ikon and Epic pass in the same year. Then I am basically covered in Vermont with all of the places I like to ski. Okemo, Killington, Sugarbush, and Stowe

 

[Edd]

Anyone here ski Crystal? It looks damn amazing. I actually lived in WA, skied Stevens Pass regularly and Mt Baker only once. I was unaware of Crystal, but this was ‘99-‘01. I didn’t even hit Whistler during that period.


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[KustyTheKlown]

I’ve been to crystal three times in the past 5 years.

Southback and northway are epic terrain pods that pass the Pepsi challenge with anyplace I’ve been

Issue is the snow levels. You can get smacked with rain or super thick concrete snow.

I’ve had incredible days there, and some not so incredible.

Staying at the base is chill, because there’s so few beds and bars, everyone winds up at the snorting elk and it’s the classic ski bar

 

[ss20]

as a southcentral PA resident who's local hill got bought by Epic I have no choice...

This is why the Ikon/Epic debate is moot, imo. AZ is a disproportionately large amount of skiers who commute farrrr to the mountains (looking at you Krusty, lol). If I lived in Stowe I have to get an Epic Pass. No question. That's instant loyalty for life if I've got a house or family there.

In very few industries can you buy a consumer's permanent brand loyalty. But these passes are doing that. If Alterra purchased Catamount they'd have a competitive edge over the NYC market til Vail buys Butternut. Now that competitive edge is erased. But if Alterra buys Stratton...and you live in/near/have ties to Startton, you're going to buy an Alterra/Stratton pass for the rest of your life (or at least be extremely unlikely to switch to another mountain).

I think that's why Vail waited so long to enter the Northeast market. Rather than know that thousands of people are loyal to them forever (locals) they're threatened by whatever Ikon's next move is, which could get the "commuter skier" going somewhere else.

Most of us who live away from the mountains have choice between Ikon/Epic. But many do not and will forever be brand loyal to the corporation that owns their local mountain.

 

[abc]

Yes and no.

How many Stowe skiers live in Stowe? Even for Burlington residents, they can choose between Sugarbush or Stowe. Same with Okemo vs Stratton except those who have condo AT the base of one or the other. For those, their royalty had long been chosen. To “their” mountain. The change is the management. They don’t have to like the mew management. But the mountain are the same.

Personally, I would have trouble buying in a mountain, knowing full well its ownership and management could change. Worse still, if your mountain could go bankrupt But that’s just me.

 

[drjeff]

Yes and no.

How many Stowe skiers live in Stowe? Even for Burlington residents, they can choose between Sugarbush or Stowe. Same with Okemo vs Stratton except those who have condo AT the base of one or the other. For those, their royalty had long been chosen. To “their” mountain. The change is the management. They don’t have to like the mew management. But the mountain are the same.

Personally, I would have trouble buying in a mountain, knowing full well its ownership and management could change. Worse still, if your mountain could go bankrupt But that’s just me.

What often happens is one buys into a mountain for what the mountain offers and appeals to them.

One often stays at a mountain, regardless of ownership changes, because of the community of friends they meet there over time

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[ss20]

What often happens is one buys into a mountain for what the mountain offers and appeals to them.

One often stays at a mountain, regardless of ownership changes, because of the community of friends they meet there over time

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Yes I was thinking of you when I wrote my post. And Hawk. And Cdskier. And Machski. And the many many more that I've left out that have fallen in love with one mountain and wouldn't ski elsewhere.

 

[BenedictGomez]

This is why the Ikon/Epic debate is moot, imo. AZ is a disproportionately large amount of skiers who commute farrrr to the mountains

Not really. Very few skiers as a sum of the whole live on top of their ski destinations. Most have to travel at least a bit. The large city populaces are the markets these passes truly covet, for most, IKON or EPIC is a choice, not a no-brainer. Especially for the thousands buying these passes primarily for the 1 week they'll be using them.

 

[cdskier]

Yes I was thinking of you when I wrote my post. And Hawk. And Cdskier. And Machski. And the many many more that I've left out that have fallen in love with one mountain and wouldn't ski elsewhere.

:beer: