AZ Challenge 2009: Chris Nyberg, Killington/Pico

[JerseyJoey]

You are joking, right? I, and I think most people on here would agree, that additional trails are preferable to widening them. However, clearly widening a trail does add acreage, and at least to some degree spreads people out.

Hardly a joke at all.

What widening trails does is remove skiable acreage of trees. That's not a trade off I'm in favor of.

At many areas, skiable acreage is boundry to boundary. Taking away 5 acres of tree skiing to add 5 acres of trail skiing is not increasing skiable acreage. It's a wash, and I am def not in favor of that trade off. Trees are much better.

A perfect example at Killington is Big Dipper/ Double Dipper. You cut the super-highway by splitting Dipper trees in half. You did not increase skaible acreage. All you did was F up a really sweet tree run by cutting it in half. Skiable acreage remained exactly the same.

 

[Greg]

Hardly a joke at all.

What widening trails does is remove skiable acreage of trees. That's not a trade off I'm in favor of.

At many areas, skiable acreage is boundry to boundary. Taking away 5 acres of tree skiing to add 5 acres of trail skiing is not increasing skiable acreage. It's a wash, and I am def not in favor of that trade off. Trees are much better.

A perfect example at Killington is Big Dipper/ Double Dipper. You cut the super-highway by splitting Dipper trees in half. You did not increase skaible acreage. All you did was F up a really sweet tree run by cutting it in half. Skiable acreage remained exactly the same.

For the average Joe, widening a trail does increase skiable acreage. Obviously not all woods is skiable either, unless of course you're a Jersey Joe....

 

[mondeo]

I understand how widening a trail can increase it's carrying capacity, but only IF such widening doesn't increase it's potential for wind scouring. It really depends on the aspect of the trail. If through widening, you create a trail that is perpetually icy, now all the traffic you were hoping it absorbs flees to the narrower trails nearby and trashes the conditions on those trails much more quickly.

And getting back to the initial question of narrowing Ovation, skier's right is always garbage skiing, it isn't even skiable for a good chunk of the season. The only time I ever cross over to the right half of the run is if I have to bail on a line or avoid a slower skier.

 

[JerseyJoey]

For the average Joe, widening a trail does increase skiable acreage. Obviously not all woods is skiable either, unless of course you're a Jersey Joe....

What is an average skier? I know not what that means.

Trees are trees. They are all skiable to a degree. If a particular line in the trees is not skiable, then move over 5 feet to your left or right. Like I said to you earlier, I can't tell you, but I can show you, and I will.

 

[Riverskier]

Hardly a joke at all.

What widening trails does is remove skiable acreage of trees. That's not a trade off I'm in favor of.

At many areas, skiable acreage is boundry to boundary. Taking away 5 acres of tree skiing to add 5 acres of trail skiing is not increasing skiable acreage. It's a wash, and I am def not in favor of that trade off. Trees are much better.

A perfect example at Killington is Big Dipper/ Double Dipper. You cut the super-highway by splitting Dipper trees in half. You did not increase skaible acreage. All you did was F up a really sweet tree run by cutting it in half. Skiable acreage remained exactly the same.

Technically true for a mountain that allows boundry to boundry skiing. However, even at those mountains not every acre is actually skiable, so widening a trail wouldn't necessarily destroy a sweet tree run. Yes, technically you could say any patch of woods is skiable somehow to someone, but I am trying to be realistic. I am really just debating the point here though, as I am NEVER in favor of widening trails for a number of reasons.

 

[JerseyJoey]

I am NEVER in favor of widening trails for a number of reasons.

I can't argue with you there. Dead on !!

 

[Highway Star]

And getting back to the initial question of narrowing Ovation, skier's right is always garbage skiing, it isn't even skiable for a good chunk of the season. The only time I ever cross over to the right half of the run is if I have to bail on a line or avoid a slower skier.

What? The best skiing on Ovation is skiers right! Wish they would cut some of the brush though, and make a bit of snow on it....lol.

 

[Highway Star]

I would like to second HighwayStar's inquiry about whether there are plans of any sort for an "extreme skiing comp" at Killington. The view of Devil's Fiddle from sunrise village is downright intimidating. Every time I pop out of my favorite stashes behind Bear Mtn, I love getting a look at the Fiddle from below on my way back to the chair. I think with some minor cleanup to get rid of the *some* of the trees that are encroaching the trail from the skier's right, and blowing some *targeted* snow in places where there are obvious life risks (e.g. if the natural snow has not been kind enough to cover the protruding boulders below the cliff drops) there could be an extreme compwith a venue better than any other on the EC. I would love to know if there has been any thought whatsoever to hosting such an event. I think it would be a good way to bring back a bit of the "beast of the east" that at one time made up Killington's entire brand, without doing any damage to the new brand you are trying to cultivate. Not only would you bring in a very ecclectic and dedicated group of excellent skiers to spend a day ripping at Killington, I think with a smart advertising campaign it can be used as an event to intrigue and attract some lower level skiers to the mtn as day customers.

I also think more skiers (who have money to spend) than you realize are captivated by the films and overall ski culture that TGR and MSP promote, and to exclude them and that culture is a mistake.... you do a good job with the Bear Mtn. Mogul Challenge year in and year out, but I feel like the entire event has become a bit dated when viewed int today's skiing scene.

So that wasn't really a question, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on that.

Very well put. This should be presented to Mr. Nyberg.

 

[Geoff]

I would like to second HighwayStar's inquiry about whether there are plans of any sort for an "extreme skiing comp" at Killington. The view of Devil's Fiddle from sunrise village is downright intimidating. Every time I pop out of my favorite stashes behind Bear Mtn, I love getting a look at the Fiddle from below on my way back to the chair. I think with some minor cleanup to get rid of the *some* of the trees that are encroaching the trail from the skier's right, and blowing some *targeted* snow in places where there are obvious life risks (e.g. if the natural snow has not been kind enough to cover the protruding boulders below the cliff drops) there could be an extreme compwith a venue better than any other on the EC. I would love to know if there has been any thought whatsoever to hosting such an event. I think it would be a good way to bring back a bit of the "beast of the east" that at one time made up Killington's entire brand, without doing any damage to the new brand you are trying to cultivate. Not only would you bring in a very ecclectic and dedicated group of excellent skiers to spend a day ripping at Killington, I think with a smart advertising campaign it can be used as an event to intrigue and attract some lower level skiers to the mtn as day customers.

I also think more skiers (who have money to spend) than you realize are captivated by the films and overall ski culture that TGR and MSP promote, and to exclude them and that culture is a mistake.... you do a good job with the Bear Mtn. Mogul Challenge year in and year out, but I feel like the entire event has become a bit dated when viewed int today's skiing scene.

So that wasn't really a question, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on that.

I think you could stage an event on Fiddle in the spring the week before or after the mogul challenge when the surface is reliably soft. It would point out the obvious competitive advantage of Killington that their natural terrain is superior and way more interesting than the terrain parks in Southern Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. It would certainly be nice if the resort woke up to the fact that southeast-facing Fiddle has the best odds in the east for good spring conditions from mid-March onwards. That should be marketed as a competetive advantage rather than putting a rope across it due to snowmaking neglect. It's certainly way cheaper than the hundreds of snow cat hours they consume building a relatively unused half pipe at Bear.

 

[Slowkemo]

So....did you buy your pass yet? :razz:

Seriously, how about rephrasing some of these and we'll be glad to include them. Putting him on the defensive will not get a genuine response. Criticism is fine, and I would think in a way helpful as long as it's done with tact. Ironically, I thought Highway Star's questions were pretty good and plan to include some. I wish he would post like that all the time.

Not that I'm a fan of the attitudes of most Jersey skiers, but shouldn't this be something that is is addressed? Why is it that Killington's management has done such a poor job that there is criticism and hostility towards it? Look at an average TGR thread regarding Killington. They don't consider Killington related to skiing any more.


To Killington's credit, they aren't the only ones that have become neo-nazis regarding things such as "having fun" and "giving locals and return customers credit where it is due" (now things of the past in many places). Is something like this going to happen ever again? Or will the hills of the east continue this downward spiral?

 

[JerseyJoey]

Not that I'm a fan of the attitudes of most Jersey skiers, but shouldn't this be something that is is addressed? Why is it that Killington's management has done such a poor job that there is criticism and hostility towards it? Look at an average TGR thread regarding Killington. They don't consider Killington related to skiing any more.


To Killington's credit, they aren't the only ones that have become neo-nazis regarding things such as "having fun" and "giving locals and return customers credit where it is due" (now things of the past in many places). Is something like this going to happen ever again? Or will the hills of the east continue this downward spiral?

Nobody has ever done to any ski resort in the history of skiing what Powdr Corp and Nyberg have done to Killington. They bought the best and turned it into the worst.

All Powdr and Nyberg had to do was return Killington to what it was just before ASC started having issues. They would have been welcomed with open arms. Hell, I woulda led the welcoming parade myself!! It worked for 45 years. At the end of the ASC days, it was bent, but it wasn't broken. Fixing it was as easy as pie.

Then this guy comes along and thinks he knows better than the people who made K a success in its first 45 years? What is that? The results of Chris's business decisions are obvious and they are a disaster, yet he still won't see the light, or maybe he does but is too arrogant and full of himself to admit that he's made mistakes. Either way, Killington loses. So does it's customers. So does the people who have skied K their whole lives and made it the great success that it once was.

Instead, they have created a ton of hostility among Killington regulars, property owners, locals, children, and business owners.They are not only killing the mountain, they are killing the town as well. Talk to any business owner along the access road. Powdr is a joke and Nyberg is too arrogant to admit that he's made a mistake so he just stays the course. The wrong course.

How to you take one of the greatest weekends in the skiing world, the BMMC, and turn it into nothing in a matter of one season. There was one campsite at OL last season during BMMC. JUST ONE!!!! There were always hundreds. It was one of the biggest parties the skiing world has ever known. 2 years later it doesn't even exist anymore.

How do you charge $180/day for the kids programs? You didn't make more money, you just sent your future customer core to other mountains. What kind of business decision is that?

I could go on and on, but I'm pretty upset right now. Just had to vent. Outta here.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Nobody has ever done to any ski resort in the history of skiing what Powdr Corp and Nyberg have done to Killington. They bought the best and turned it into the worst.

All Powdr and Nyberg had to do was return Killington to what it was just before ASC started having issues. They would have been welcomed with open arms. Hell, I woulda led the welcoming parade myself!! It worked for 45 years. At the end of the ASC days, it was bent, but it wasn't broken. Fixing it was as easy as pie.

Then this guy comes along and thinks he knows better than the people who made K a success in its first 45 years? What is that? The results of Chris's business decisions are obvious and they are a disaster, yet he still won't see the light, or maybe he does but is too arrogant and full of himself to admit that he's made mistakes. Either way, Killington loses. So does it's customers. So does the people who have skied K their whole lives and made it the great success that it once was.

Instead, they have created a ton of hostility among Killington regulars, property owners, locals, children, and business owners.They are not only killing the mountain, they are killing the town as well. Talk to any business owner along the access road. Powdr is a joke and Nyberg is too arrogant to admit that he's made a mistake so he just stays the course. The wrong course.

How to you take one of the greatest weekends in the skiing world, the BMMC, and turn it into nothing in a matter of one season. There was one campsite at OL last season during BMMC. JUST ONE!!!! There were always hundreds. It was one of the biggest parties the skiing world has ever known. 2 years later it doesn't even exist anymore.

How do you charge $180/day for the kids programs? You didn't make more money, you just sent your future customer core to other mountains. What kind of business decision is that?

I could go on and on, but I'm pretty upset right now. Just had to vent. Outta here.

Please Jersey..we are happy to have Chris on here so ask your questions in a kind way..

 

[JerseyJoey]

Please Jersey..we are happy to have Chris on here so ask your questions in a kind way..

What questions? I'm not asking any questions I already know the answers to.

Go ahead and ask your questions. Chris will have Tommy lie to you with bullshit answers meant to get around giving you the truth. It's been happening since they moved in and it will continue to happen until they move out. We've been lied to since day one.

OK, now I'm outta here.

 

[mondeo]

Someone seems to have some roid rage...

 

[icedtea]

Someone seems to have some roid rage...

makes sense..everyone from nj is on the juice.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

makes sense..everyone from nj is on the juice.

except Root..he's on the ribs..

 

[Highway Star]

Nobody has ever done to any ski resort in the history of skiing what Powdr Corp and Nyberg have done to Killington. They bought the best and turned it into the worst.

All Powdr and Nyberg had to do was return Killington to what it was just before ASC started having issues. They would have been welcomed with open arms. Hell, I woulda led the welcoming parade myself!! It worked for 45 years. At the end of the ASC days, it was bent, but it wasn't broken. Fixing it was as easy as pie.

Then this guy comes along and thinks he knows better than the people who made K a success in its first 45 years? What is that? The results of Chris's business decisions are obvious and they are a disaster, yet he still won't see the light, or maybe he does but is too arrogant and full of himself to admit that he's made mistakes. Either way, Killington loses. So does it's customers. So does the people who have skied K their whole lives and made it the great success that it once was.

Instead, they have created a ton of hostility among Killington regulars, property owners, locals, children, and business owners.They are not only killing the mountain, they are killing the town as well. Talk to any business owner along the access road. Powdr is a joke and Nyberg is too arrogant to admit that he's made a mistake so he just stays the course. The wrong course.

How to you take one of the greatest weekends in the skiing world, the BMMC, and turn it into nothing in a matter of one season. There was one campsite at OL last season during BMMC. JUST ONE!!!! There were always hundreds. It was one of the biggest parties the skiing world has ever known. 2 years later it doesn't even exist anymore.

How do you charge $180/day for the kids programs? You didn't make more money, you just sent your future customer core to other mountains. What kind of business decision is that?

I could go on and on, but I'm pretty upset right now. Just had to vent. Outta here.

This isn't very productive in this thread.............

 

[Highway Star]

Last year's challenge thread:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/31067-killington-2008-alpinezone-ski-area-challenge.html

 

[frankm938]

not sure why jersey joey has such and issue with chris nyberg. overall i think he has done a pretty good job so far. the new hi-speed quad is great, the dream maker park is better than anything we had in the past, the tree thinning and brush clearing that was done on growler last summer made it the best tree run on the mountain (ive heard they plan on doing the same to other tree runs that have been over grown)
and he is going to seed a couple mogul runs this season!!
the fact that the kids program is too expensive is not an issue for me (ill teach my kids to ski myself) or the fact that burgers cost too much, i can pack a lunch
i do however agree with the sentiments about the BMMC, it would be nice to come up with a way to bring it back to the way it was.

my question is... is there any way that outer limits could be open for christmas week without natural snowfall?
spending a week on flat groomers gets old. so im sure everyone that spends the week up there would enjoy having it open.

 

[Highway Star]

I liked the Fiddle and season length question. Oh, and the beer question is very important. :razz:

Can you please ask them what is up with the interconnect? Can they do a limited initial phase....?