AZ Challenge 2009: Chris Nyberg, Killington/Pico

[JerseyJoey]

Just so I have my ownership time line correct. Wasn't ASC responsible for creating the Canyon area? I won't call that area of the mountain completely ruined, but it used to be A LOT better. Wasn't ASC also responsible for putting in the Needle's Eye HSQ, which is just about the most pointless lift placement I've ever seen. Wasn't ASC also responsible for the closing of Sunrise Mountain, which was a GREAT alternative for day skiers outside of the long slow lift.

JJ, I certainly see reason for your displeasure with some of the actions of Powdr, but running out of money wasn't ASC's only problem. They carried on the long season tradition at K, but they had they're share of screw ups as well.

1) Your time line is way off on the Canyon area. That was Pres Smith. The CQ4 is a great lift and another perfect example of a key lift that Powdr rarely runs during the week, although that has changed a bit as of last season.

2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.

3) The closing of sunrise mountain was a land swap deal that never materialized. No I will not get into the details of the interconnect here.

4) As far as the longest season in the east, ASC knew exactly what they were doing. Powdr doesn't have a clue. Hell, they can't even spell Powder correctly.

 

[Greg]

And why do you think that is? That's MY question for our fearless leader!!

I think your point is made and I think it's a good overall question. Let's try to rephrase it and touch on a three or four of the bigger items like season length, BMMC, etc. I know it's tough to refrain throwing in some jabs, especially when so many people feel so passionate about what's happening at Killington, but if you really want some honest responses to these concerns, you need to ask them in the right way. Not sure if Highway Star is just being condescending with his almost over-the-top politeness, but his questions are more likely to get presented.

 

[thetrailboss]

I was not upset with ASC. I was however upset with what happened to ASC.

ASC knew exactly how to run Killington but they lost their financial resources. Powdr has the resources but has no idea how to run Killington. Exact opposites.

I intend to spend much more time in the Mad River Valley this season than ever before even though I have a K pass. I have a lot of respect for Win and a lot of respect for the co-op at MRG and I will take much more of my skiing dollars to those 2 areas this season. I may know Killington better, but I've become very fed up with mgt decisions since Powdr came to town. Their treatment of employees is abyssmal as is their treatment of their core customer base. Bad for business. Bad for everyone.

Let's see if Chrissy has Tommy answer any of the "real" questions in this thread.
You can bet the mortgage he won't, or if he does, it will be a pack of lies. That's what sucks most about Powdr. The deception of the long time customers.

OK. Now I understand what you were saying. I just read the ASC section in Lorentz's book...and I was a bit as to what Les Otten "claimed" happened behind the scenes with ASC when it went public and the aftermath. Pretty discouraging.

I take it that you have a place at Killington, hence why you still have a pass there?

And I'd say drop that and get a Sugarbush pass. It was the same price if not cheaper....

 

[mondeo]

Was thinking the same thing.

2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.

My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Realistically, taking the gondi adds a few minutes per run, but you get lappable access to all the Needle's terrain plus some more. The fact that there's never a line points to its usefulness. Bump and tree skiers are a small segment of the revenue base at any mountain, I'm not sure that adding what is essentially a more convienent but redundant lift to serve a few percent of the skiers did anything to revenue, but now that it's there they upset people if it isn't spinning. If they never installed it, no one would be complaining that there wasn't a chair there.

From a skier's standpoint, I like it, from a business standpoint, it was a dumb move. There's a reason K went downhill in ASC's later years; they simply didn't have a sustainable business plan, mostly due to purchasing too many resorts, but stuff like the Needle's lift didn't help.

 

[RENO]

I wouldn't expect it to be like that again this year. I think that's why Frank specified opening without natural snowfall; what was it, like 5-6 feet of natural the week before Christmas? (maybe exaggerated, but it was a lot.) O.L. opened with hip-deep natural, fluffy powder a week or two early.

Not exagerating! That was an awesome week! :grin:

 

[JerseyJoey]

There's a reason K went downhill in ASC's later years; they simply didn't have a sustainable business plan, mostly due to purchasing too many resorts, but stuff like the Needle's lift didn't help.

ASC's downfall was not due to redundant lifts or purchasing too many resorts.

ASC's downfall was due to poor investments in real estate. As much as it hurts me to say this, Les had the right idea. He just implemented it way way way too fast, but I truly believe he had the right idea. Ya gotta walk before you can run. Les took off at full speed right out of the gate. That was ASC's legacy as well as their downfall.

Greg,

You can edit or rephrase or whatever my posts in this thread. Don't make no matter to me. I expect nothing to be answered truthfully by either Chris or Tommy, but mostly Chris. Tommy has a job to do and he has a family to support and he needs an income to do that. He is just a puppet in this scenario. He knows what he can and can't say, and I have no problem with that. His job is to spin. When you spin, you lie. It's a job. Nothing more. I expect nothing in here to be answered truthfully and straight on. You shouldn't either. Not from Powdr.

You want the truth, go to a MRG Shareholders meeting or ask Win something about his wonderful resort. You get the goods. With Powdr, you get "War and Peace", mostly war. Bunch of crap at best.

 

[deadheadskier]

1) Your time line is way off on the Canyon area. That was Pres Smith. The CQ4 is a great lift and another perfect example of a key lift that Powdr rarely runs during the week, although that has changed a bit as of last season.

2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.

3) The closing of sunrise mountain was a land swap deal that never materialized. No I will not get into the details of the interconnect here.

4) As far as the longest season in the east, ASC knew exactly what they were doing. Powdr doesn't have a clue. Hell, they can't even spell Powder correctly.

I stand corrected. However, nowadays people treat Pres Smith like he's some sort of god. While the Canyon lift is nice as it avoids the run out you used to have to take to get to the old double, the whole destroying of Big Dipper / Double Dipper whatever in that area was a HUGE mistake in my book.

The Needles Eye lift while convenient, was a pretty stupid install if you ask me. When you look at all of the lifts that needed upgrading at that time; Skye Peak, Snowdon lifts etc, why in the world you'd make an investment right there when you already had the gondola makes no sense.

And I'd like to see something to back up your land swap claims on shutting down Sunrise. Maybe some undeveloped real estate land on the sides of the trail, but there's no way the forest service or any other interested parties benefits from closing the lower trails, lift and base lodge. I don't buy that. If you can show some reasonable proof that I'm wrong fine, but to me it looked like a cost cutting move, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[JerseyJoey]

I stand corrected. However, nowadays people treat Pres Smith like he's some sort of god. While the Canyon lift is nice as it avoids the run out you used to have to take to get to the old double, the whole destroying of Big Dipper / Double Dipper whatever in that area was a HUGE mistake in my book.


Agreed. Should have never touched Dipper in the first place.

The Needles Eye lift while convenient, was a pretty stupid install if you ask me. When you look at all of the lifts that needed upgrading at that time; Skye Peak, Snowdon lifts etc, why in the world you'd make an investment right there when you already had the gondola makes no sense.

The Needles lift is a great lift. You need to learn the area, not just what's on the trail map. I can help you with that if we ever ski together there.

The Snowdon lifts SHOULD NEVER be upgraded. Not from a skiers standpoint. No reason to ever ride the triple anyway. Leave the quad alone until the end of time.

And I'd like to see something to back up your land swap claims on shutting down Sunrise. Maybe some undeveloped real estate land on the sides of the trail, but there's no way the forest service or any other interested parties benefits from closing the lower trails, lift and base lodge. I don't buy that. If you can show some reasonable proof that I'm wrong fine, but to me it looked like a cost cutting move, nothing more, nothing less.


There was a land swap deal for that area and it involved a lot more than Parker's Gore. Do some research. You will find it.

..

 

[mondeo]

The Needles lift is a great lift. You need to learn the area, not just what's on the trail map. I can help you with that if we ever ski together there.

You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.

 

[RENO]

2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.

I agree, that lift is barely used other than weekends. I don't like using the Skyeship midweek most of the time and like to do laps on Needles HSQ . I've asked Tom about that and they just say that NHSQ accesses the same terrain as the Skyeship so it's not needed during midweek. I say just run them both at least Friday - Monday. I think ASC was doing the same thing during it's last couple seasons also to save a $...

 

[deadheadskier]

You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.

that's the point I'm making, but more so that the Skye Peak lift should have taken much higher priority over the Needles Eye lift. And I disagree with JJ on Snowdon. I'd much rather a HSQ over there than on Needles. As for the comment about knowing Killington. While I haven't skied there in 8 years, my family had a home right down the road near Lake Rescue. We were Okemo pass holders, but I skied Killington at least 50 times during the 80's and early 90's. I know the mountain well.

 

[JerseyJoey]

You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.

It serves many purposes. First and foremost, on a busy day, it alleviates wating 20 minutes for the gondi. Remember, on a busy day, most of those gondi cars are full when they get up to the midstation at Needles. Very little room for loading at the Needles midstation in those cars on a busy day.

Second, it completely let's you avoid the cluster F that Powdr Corp has created at the top of Skye Peak. You been anywhere near the top of the Skye Peak Quad on a Saturday or Holiday? They're gonna need to rethink that whole area in the near future if they haven't already. Total cluster F with way to many beginners being funneled onto trails they shouldn't be on.

The only problem I can see about the NE Quad is that it doesn't go high enough like the old one did. With the current lift, you cannot access Upper Needles, Upper Dreamaker, Thimble, or any of the unmarked runs in between.

I understand the ROI arguement, but the lift is already there. Run it all the time.

 

[skiadikt]

It serves many purposes. First and foremost, on a busy day, it alleviates wating 20 minutes for the gondi. Remember, on a busy day, most of those gondi cars are full when they get up to the midstation at Needles. Very little room for loading at the Needles midstation in those cars on a busy day.

Second, it completely let's you avoid the cluster F that Powdr Corp has created at the top of Skye Peak. You been anywhere near the top of the Skye Peak Quad on a Saturday or Holiday? They're gonna need to rethink that whole area in the near future if they haven't already. Total cluster F with way to many beginners being funneled onto trails they shouldn't be on.

The only problem I can see about the NE Quad is that it doesn't go high enough like the old one did. With the current lift, you cannot access Upper Needles, Upper Dreamaker, Thimble, or any of the unmarked runs in between.

I understand the ROI arguement, but the lift is already there. Run it all the time.

agree.

at that time, the needles lift was a very old double (the original k chair) and needed replacing more so than snowden where a fixed grip quad had recently replaced the double and skye peak quad which was also a relatively new lift. in addition it led to the development of an expanded trail pod including vertigo, cruise control & needles liftline.

one can argue that it should have gone higher and that it should run mid-week but on weekends you NEED that chair.

 

[skiadikt]

as for replacing the snowden quad with an hsq, no one complained when the bush replaced castlerock with another double and mad river replaced the single with another single. same thing with the snowden quad. an hsq there will totally change the character of the tree skiing in that area. those runs would be garbage by 10am. i'd certainly like to them do whatever they can to improve operation of the lift so that it can run at it's rated speed most of the time without all the stopping. but NO to an hsq.

 

[mondeo]

as for replacing the snowden quad with an hsq, no one complained when the bush replaced castlerock with another double and mad river replaced the single with another single. same thing with the snowden quad. an hsq there will totally change the character of the tree skiing in that area. those runs would be garbage by 10am. i'd certainly like to them do whatever they can to improve operation of the lift so that it can run at it's rated speed most of the time without all the stopping. but NO to an hsq.

I'm still wondering about a HSQ with an unload around the triple, and make it a slightly tedious traverse if you want to ski North Star, Vagabond, Great Bear, Low Rider, or Patsy's. Get the HSQ-loving peeps up the hill quickly and comfortably, but only those that know there's a reason to traverse do so. The masses that would destroy those runs aren't going to do anything other than point their skis downhill.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Agree that a HSQ in the same place would kill the reason to ride the chair, Chute's scraped off by 10am as it is on weekends.

 

[JerseyJoey]

I'm still wondering about a HSQ with an unload around the triple, and make it a slightly tedious traverse if you want to ski North Star, Vagabond, Great Bear, Low Rider, or Patsy's. Get the HSQ-loving peeps up the hill quickly and comfortably, but only those that know there's a reason to traverse do so. The masses that would destroy those runs aren't going to do anything other than point their skis downhill.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Agree that a HSQ in the same place would kill the reason to ride the chair, Chute's scraped off by 10am as it is on weekends.

Why would you want 2 lifts unloading at the exact same place at the top of Snowdon, or are you saying do away with the triple altogether?

 

[skiadikt]

Why would you want 2 lifts unloading at the exact same place at the top of Snowdon, or are you saying do away with the triple altogether?

i might be cool with them replacing the quad with an hsq and losing the triple but there'd still be a lot more traffic in there since you be able to get at least twice as many runs in. sometimes you have to protect us from ourselves ...

 

[JerseyJoey]

i might be cool with them replacing the quad with an hsq and losing the triple but there'd still be a lot more traffic in there since you be able to get at least twice as many runs in. sometimes you have to protect us from ourselves ...

Having only one Snowdon lift will create huge liftlines at that lift during weekends and holidays. One of the beautiful things about the quad is you can normally ski right on, even on a busy day.

They should just leave Snowdon the way it is. They rarely run the triple anyway. No harm no foul. Leave that area alone. I've spent entire days on the Snowdon Quad. So have you. Nothing better when the conditions are right and the goods are good. Leave it alone.

 

[Highway Star]

There was a land swap deal for that area and it involved a lot more than Parker's Gore. Do some research. You will find it.

Sunrise was not part of the land swap deal. It operated for 3 years after the land swap. The swap basicly traded parkers gore, the land southwest of Killington Peak, for basin land to build the base village. Pico had been purchased, and the focus of development changed to the interconnect. Sunrise was originally intended to link over to the solitude/juggernaut/south ridge area, then parkers gore. If we had gotten all that, plus the pico interconnect, Killington would have been around 2000 acres. They should down sunrise because of: lack of traffic vs. operating cost, an aging long triple chair, inferior access vs. the Skyeship, and no future for parkers gore.

AFAIK, they still have rights to operate over there, and the snowmobile tours do (or did for a while). I think they pulled out much of the snowmaking pipe but don't know for sure. The lift towers obviouly have not been removed. Personally, I wish they would install a used double chair over there, and some basic snowmaking on the steeps. It would be fun on busy weekends or very cold/windy days.

Major problem with laying off your full time, experienced staff, is that you don't have enough to be people capable of modifying and relocating lifts, in house. You have to go to a contractor or buy new. Back in the 60's-90's, they had lots of staff and could modify and build lifts as they pleased.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

amazing that a second tier east coast resort like Killington is getting so much response..