Where are the moguls? A brief look at the demise of moguls.

[Puck it]

Who knew Robert E. Lee was talking about Moguls at Appomattox?

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

My wife enjoys moguls, I don't mind them, but how anybody finds them all that exciting is beyond me. In generall they are just large mounds of ice for 4/5ths of the season. I will admit on a powder day I do enjoy them...actually I love them on a powder day, as with just about anything on the mountain. Disclaimer, my wife and I both ride rather than ski. And yes I can ride moguls just fine so my dislike of them has nothing to do with the fact that I can't ride moguls.

 

[frankm938]

My wife enjoys moguls, I don't mind them, but how anybody finds them all that exciting is beyond me. In generall they are just large mounds of ice for 4/5ths of the season. I will admit on a powder day I do enjoy them...actually I love them on a powder day, as with just about anything on the mountain. Disclaimer, my wife and I both ride rather than ski. And yes I can ride moguls just fine so my dislike of them has nothing to do with the fact that I can't ride moguls.

good, then stay out of the bumps if you dont like them. part of the reason why seeded bumps are needed is because snowboards dont turn as quick as skis (with the exception of that one kid at killington who was in the bmmc) and the make big spaced out walls. when im riding my snowboard, i dont like moguls either

 

[bobbutts]

I love bumps on the board when the conditions are right, but for me that's a much smaller window than it is for skis. I find skis more versatile for sure. I've always wondered how much of that is the equipment and how much is me. I never put in the years of learning bumps (as a resilient youngster) on the board like I did on skis, so it's impossible for me to say really. Certainly the ratio of boarders to skiers in the bumps is highly tilted towards skis.
The big thing that I notice changing over the last 20 years is that moguls used to be where the most athletic and skilled skiers could be found on just about any mountain. Now many of these people are jumping and jibbing (some on snowboards) instead.

 

[jaywbigred]

good, then stay out of the bumps if you dont like them. part of the reason why seeded bumps are needed is because snowboards dont turn as quick as skis (with the exception of that one kid at killington who was in the bmmc) and the make big spaced out walls. when im riding my snowboard, i dont like moguls either

Agreed. I've seen maybe 2 snowboarders my whole life whose technique in the bumps wasn't doing damage to the lines. Of course, i've seen thousands of skiers doing damage as well...

 

[bvibert]

Snowboarders have to learn somehow, just as skiers do. They have just as much right to be in the bumps trying to figure them out as skiers do. Do you think those good snowboarders just jumped right in and had it figured out right away?

 

[4aprice]

Agreed. I've seen maybe 2 snowboarders my whole life whose technique in the bumps wasn't doing damage to the lines. Of course, i've seen thousands of skiers doing damage as well...

I like riding (in my case on a pair of skis) with my body facing pretty much straight down the hill. I was never able to ride a skate board with my feet across the fall line but when in line skates became available I was able to get around on pavement. I say this because I don't know how its possible to get a board around in a tight zipper type line. Yes inexperienced skiers damage lines too but there so much less ski as opposed to board pushing the snow.

Moguls on a board don't look all that fun to me. I give credit to those who try. I can't tell you how many times I've sat at the top of a line and watched these guys charge in to the bumps and be on their butt, boards in the air, two bumps later. I don't board so I can't judge if its bad boarding or just impossible for them to follow a line (I mean physically). I definately see where powder, corn, cord etc. would be fun but not the bumps.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[Jeffy]

I ski and snowboard and sure both have equal right to be anywhere on the mountain. However, skis and snowboards are clearly two very different tools and because so they each excel on different parts of the mountain and with different turn styles/shapes.

Snowboards are a horrible tool for moguls. The sideways stance, wide board, feet locked together and single downhill edge are huge hinderances. Plus, moguls are made by skiers, not snowboarders so that further works against snowboards. Think about it, if there were a snowboard only hill, there would not be a single mogul run (as we know it today) on that hill - because of the way snowboarders ride/turn.

However, there are a few boarders now and then that perhaps happen upon a mogul run (and have to get down) or even like to try it occasionally and the same thing can be said for some skiers. Unless you have a team of snowboarders constantly lapping down your zipperline, they are not doing any more damage than you or another skier. In fact, snowboarders normally HELP the mogul line out (and make it better) by turning in different spots and throwing snow into the troughs. They are almost like automatic line slippers for us mogul skiers.

When I ride my board, I avoid moguls like the plague.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

one of the guys in our crew at SR can get through the bumps pretty damned well on his board...his hardplate race board...also takes it in the halfpipe, the park, is quicker than a rabbit in the woods...oh, and he can carve too. We call him the mutant...for obvious reasons.

 

[snafu]

good, then stay out of the bumps if you dont like them. part of the reason why seeded bumps are needed is because snowboards dont turn as quick as skis (with the exception of that one kid at killington who was in the bmmc) and the make big spaced out walls. when im riding my snowboard, i dont like moguls either

Attitudes like this makes me want to go out and wreck every bump field I come across. :flame:
As a rider I will ride wherever my muse takes me. Period.

 

[frankm938]

Attitudes like this makes me want to go out and wreck every bump field I come across. :flame:
As a rider I will ride wherever my muse takes me. Period.

i didnt say he wasnt aloud to ride his snowboard in the moguls, i said that if he doesnt like them, he should stay out of them. and snowboards do wreck moguls (that doesnt mean snowboarding isnt just as fun and it doesnt mean that snowboarders are bad people) its just the way you control speed when skiing bumps is through absorbtion (the deeper you go the more you slow down) in order to control speed in the bumps on a snowboard, you need to skid down the backside and push snow into the face of the next bump.

 

[AdironRider]

This is strictly an east coast snowboard skier thing and complete bullshit. I have never once heard of people bitching about snowboarders in the bumps out here. There no truth to argument. A bad skier wrecks bumps just as much as a bad snowboarder. Bumps form over 75% of the hill here when its not a pow day, everyone gets pretty good at em.

This is strictly an argument for Jersey folk like Frank M from the east coast, who probably watch some other Joey beater down Mountain Creek and clearly know better.

 

[Edd]

its funny, a few of you have called out the ASC resorts for playing a hand in the death of moguls but while KL and SB were mowing everything down, the birthplace of ASC, Sunday River, was letting half of 3D (an intermediate run) bump up...they also let half of Tempest bump and have a nice progression from 3D to runs like Downdraft, Quantum Leap, White Heat, Shockwave, Vortex, and most of the runs in Oz which all see minimal grooming...this was going on long before Boyne came to town.

SR used to let skiers right on Dreamaker bump up. A good low angle trainer. It seems as if that's been let go or I'm not paying attention. 3D is nearly always bumped up but I don't view that as a good starter bump run. Too much pitch, I think. 3D has to be one of the toughest blues in New England.

The lower half of Risky Business on skiers right has low angle bumps I enjoy. Agony is a blast to me but I don't know if hardcore bumpers view that as a proper bump run. Tempest's bumps are much harder to me, perhaps because they are more consistent.

I remember Powerline at Jay as a good mild pitch bumper. Also Attitash used to have bumps on a bunny trail (name escapes me) that were excellent training. Not an Attitash fan though.

I would welcome consistent maintenance of starter bump trails. I tackle the bumps but my form can go wacky.

 

[Greg]

This is strictly an argument for Jersey folk like Frank M from the east coast, who probably watch some other Joey beater down Mountain Creek and clearly know better.

:lol: Actually, our boy Frank was seeded 4th at BMMC last year and placed 2nd behind Randy Grasso at the Sundown comp...

Nice try through, AdironTroller. :roll:

 

[AdironRider]

I think people know my style at this point. In the years Ive posted here I mostly stand by the wayside; however, when I do speak out I come on strong and take no prisoners.

That being said, I stand corrected on Frank, but it doesnt mean he didnt make an ingnorant statement. Ive never once heard out here that the moguls were ruined due to snowboarders. Everyone knows that snowboarders are never going to compete in freestyle like Johnny Moseley, and bump courses should really be kept to skiers, but natural mogul lines that form all over the hill certainly arent ruined by snowboarders in the least part.

 

[mondeo]

Skidding down sideways kills bumps. Doesn't matter if it's on a snowboard or skis, the skidding scrapes the bumps down to hardpack and skidding to a stop on the frontside of a bump turns it into a wall. The difference between skiers and snowboarders is that because skis are better suited to quick turns, the learning curve for skis isn't nearly as sharp, so you don't spend as much time learning bumps through sideways skidding.

The thing that gets to me isn't people skidding down bumps at Sundown, or skidding down intermediate bumps at a bigger place, or people caught on a bump run they weren't expecting. Whatever, they're learning or caught out. It's the people that do things like ride up the Bear quad, having never skied/boarded bumps in their life, and skid their way down O.L., and probably worse, the friends/parents that bring their friends/kids along with them, despite it being way beyond the tagalongs' ability level, just so they can ski it.

 

[snoseek]

Someone please still explain the idea of seeded bumps to me. What is the appeal of seeded bumps to natural moguls? Wouldn't skiing (or riding hahaha) big uneven natural bumps make you a stronger mogul skier? Wouldn't seeded bumps be like cheating a little?

I swear I'm not trolling, I really want to know as I often skip these bump threads. I personally prefer natural trails over groomers 90% of the time but usually just looking for pockets of good snow and interesting terrain. To me seeded bumps look kind of boring.

 

[mondeo]

Someone please still explain the idea of seeded bumps to me. What is the appeal of seeded bumps to natural moguls? Wouldn't skiing (or riding hahaha) big uneven natural bumps make you a stronger mogul skier? Wouldn't seeded bumps be like cheating a little?

I swear I'm not trolling, I really want to know as I often skip these bump threads. I personally prefer natural trails over groomers 90% of the time but usually just looking for pockets of good snow and interesting terrain. To me seeded bumps look kind of boring.

Yeah you'll get better skiing natural bumps. But with natural bumps you can get some stuff that's just ugly, no chance to get in any rhythm whatsoever. Seeded bumps, you always know what you're getting, you know there's a line that goes more than 3 bumps. They're also good for learning, because you can focus more on technique and not pay as much attention to figuring out how you're going to handle that shift in the line 3 bumps from now.

I'll take a halfway decent natural bump run over seeded any day of the week. But garbage natural bump runs are worse than seeded. Which is why the people that have spent some time on Vertigo question the choice of run to seed at Killington; for the last half of the season, those bumps were near perfect, with just enough funkiness to make it interesting.

And not to miss out on a chance for impropriety:
Ok natural bumps are better than fake bumps, which are themselves better than garbage bumps. Just the facts of life.

 

[snoseek]

Yeah you'll get better skiing natural bumps. But with natural bumps you can get some stuff that's just ugly, no chance to get in any rhythm whatsoever. Seeded bumps, you always know what you're getting, you know there's a line that goes more than 3 bumps. They're also good for learning, because you can focus more on technique and not pay as much attention to figuring out how you're going to handle that shift in the line 3 bumps from now.

I'll take a halfway decent natural bump run over seeded any day of the week. But garbage natural bump runs are worse than seeded. Which is why the people that have spent some time on Vertigo question the choice of run to seed at Killington; for the last half of the season, those bumps were near perfect, with just enough funkiness to make it interesting.

And not to miss out on a chance for impropriety:
Ok natural bumps are better than fake bumps, which are themselves better than garbage bumps. Just the facts of life.

O.K. this makes sense to me. So it's basically a way to ski bumps when the freeze/rain thaw cycles happen instead of just making laps on crowded groomers. I sometimes forget how the weather can shut off natural terrain back east. If I skied at Sundown a nice dedicated bump run would probably keep it interesting.



Another question: Why do so many not like skiing big fast bumps. I like them a lot, like a hybrid of bump skiing and just going fast. Chair 1 @ LL and Pali @ a-basin are prime examples of this kind of skiing. Back East mittersill @ Cannon or maybe Top Gun@ SR would be examples of spaced bumps that are fun to fly through.

 

[Edd]

or maybe Top Gun@ SR would be examples of spaced bumps that are fun to fly through.

Completely agree. Not being a hardcore bumper I enjoy natural runs that are kind of a mess. Along with Top Gun and Agony the right side of Obsession is always just unruly and that appeals to me.