Terminal Intermediate?

[goldsbar]

Nice 2006 post. My advice is somewhat different:

1. Buy one of Harald Harbs books - saw someone else suggest this. Advice such as keep your weight forward is very hard for most of us to understand. Such advice often makes people (me) spend years in a gorilla position which actually keeps your weight back! BTW, neutral weight is generally fine. I like instructors but they can be detrimental unless you find a good one and go a few times.

2. Gear shouldn't matter much as long as it fits (i.e. nice glove like fitting boots). I actually suggest a pair of noodle skis with a short turning radius. Very easy to learn to carve on such skis.

3. Back off the steepness and back off the speed. It's fairly easy to ski fast and so-so technique can get you down steeps. Today's wide skis can even get so-so technique down steep off piste. Technique is all about speed control and being able to turn however and whenever you want. I'll be working on this for the rest of my life.

4. Following up on #1. Learn to carve on beginner/easy intermediate slopes with good (i.e. your can't see your reflection in the ice) snow. Once you can carve short turns on hard intermediate groomers you'll be able to handle anything with some very slight technique modifications with the exception of zipperline moguls. Buy Dipiro's (sp?) and you'll pick that up in time.

 

[jaja111]

........ get a cannabis........

Taught me to relax, be smooth, have grace, dance a bit, strengthened faith to turn on the front of the ski and keep weight forward, be smooth, relax, don't make any jarring movements unless absolutely necessary.... did I say be smooth?

The transition past the seemingly terminal intermediate level for many people is an "aha" moment in which they realize, bear with me, that they are skiing with the center, limbic portion of the brain and their frontal lobe went from too many tasks to manage to just simply navigating. The transition out is when you go from coping with the situation for the reward of making it to the bottom to wishing the bottom never arrived. Think driving - we all take it for granted to some degree and it came fairly naturally, for such a complex task, only through practice and gaining comfort with it. Once someone skis without a lot of thought, adding additional challenges are easier to cope with and adapt to. I see too many people pushing themselves into ski situations (sometimes terrain, but where I live its usually the weather that's the culprit) that damage their comfort and confidence, relegating them to the illusion of "terminal intermediate". One has to build upon what they've learned gradually. No one is going to play Mozart on a piano after having mastered "Camptown Races" or "Chopsticks", but if they try, and then go back to playing "Chopsticks" they see that the skill to play the simpler tune has suffered.

 

[riverc0il]

The guy with the inverted triangle thingy has it backwards. It's all about balance and technique is secondary to that. they kind of go hand in hand, but you can't be a good skier without having the balance, which is different in different situations, down.

This is probably splitting hairs as this is kind of chicken and egg. Almost, but not quite. You can not develop good balance without good technique. Good balance with bad technique is not going to get you very far. You can have all the balance in the world but if you can't set your edge right, it doesn't matter how well you load and unload your ski. I developed basic technique first and getting my balance down took me to the next level. Basically, you can compensate for bad balance with good technique (gets the job done but you don't look graceful) but good balance is not going to let you get by with bad technique. Can you even have good balance with bad technique? I say that is less likely than good technique with bad balance. They go hand and hand but I think focusing on technique is way more important (and likely more practicable and understandable for the terminal intermediate) than focusing on balance.

 

[crank]

This is probably splitting hairs as this is kind of chicken and egg. Almost, but not quite. You can not develop good balance without good technique. Good balance with bad technique is not going to get you very far. You can have all the balance in the world but if you can't set your edge right, it doesn't matter how well you load and unload your ski. I developed basic technique first and getting my balance down took me to the next level. Basically, you can compensate for bad balance with good technique (gets the job done but you don't look graceful) but good balance is not going to let you get by with bad technique. Can you even have good balance with bad technique? I say that is less likely than good technique with bad balance. They go hand and hand but I think focusing on technique is way more important (and likely more practicable and understandable for the terminal intermediate) than focusing on balance.

I disagree. Well yes good technique is important, but what is good technique is not an exact thing. Many coaches would change Bode Miller's Technique yet it works for him. An intermediate, terminal or otherwise, will know how to turn their skis. Still, they struggle on harder terrain. Why? Balance! As I stated in my earlier post, I have seen plenty of skiers who thought they were good, and even looked good on easier terrain. Take them to the steeps or the bumps and the fall apart. The most important thing is balance. You can split hairs, and maybe have to, by saying you need to have your weight (balance) on this edge or that edge, but it still boils down to balance.

 

[speden]

1. Buy one of Harald Harbs books - saw someone else suggest this. Advice such as keep your weight forward is very hard for most of us to understand. Such advice often makes people (me) spend years in a gorilla position which actually keeps your weight back! BTW, neutral weight is generally fine. I like instructors but they can be detrimental unless you find a good one and go a few times.

I read one of Harb's books a while back, "Essentials of Skiing". It has a lot of useful information, but one thing I don't like about his approach is he talks about how things feel rather than the actual physics of what's happening at the edges.

For example, he says that you never need to use any rotary input on the skis. Just tipping and balancing will get the job of carving turns done. But I'd say that's baloney.

There's no way two unconnected skis are going to stay parallel without at least some moderate rotary input to fine tune their alignment. People may not feel like they are adding any steering inputs to the skis since it's subtle and perhaps happening instinctively, but those inputs are happening and are necessary.

 

[mister moose]

The most important thing is balance. You can split hairs, and maybe have to, by saying you need to have your weight (balance) on this edge or that edge, but it still boils down to balance.

So you're saying which edge you have weight on is balance. And by extension, which part of the ski, favoring the tip, tail, or center. And the rate of change of transfer from one area to the other. Choice of body position. Choice of when to do it, or timing. You are simply declaring all technique to be balance, the two are the same for you. If we accept your premise, then of course we have to agree. I know I don't accept the premise that all changes in which edge your weight is on is balance, as i can stay balanced in a number of positions and different areas of the ski my weight is on, or different pressures in different places and stay balanced. Choosing when and where to place your balance is... ummmm technique. And as easy as it sounds, "Don't sit back", most people find saying it is wayyyy easier than doing it.

Another example. Angulation is part of balance in a turn, but where in the body you angulate is technique.

 

[mondeo]

You can split hairs

Hairs are too wide enough for this discussion.

 

[crank]

So you're saying which edge you have weight on is balance. And by extension, which part of the ski, favoring the tip, tail, or center. And the rate of change of transfer from one area to the other. Choice of body position. Choice of when to do it, or timing. You are simply declaring all technique to be balance, the two are the same for you. If we accept your premise, then of course we have to agree. I know I don't accept the premise that all changes in which edge your weight is on is balance, as i can stay balanced in a number of positions and different areas of the ski my weight is on, or different pressures in different places and stay balanced. Choosing when and where to place your balance is... ummmm technique. And as easy as it sounds, "Don't sit back", most people find saying it is wayyyy easier than doing it.

Another example. Angulation is part of balance in a turn, but where in the body you angulate is technique.

No, I'm saying that an intermediate with some basic technique skills needs to think about balance. Getting your weight forward, for example is balance. Don't lean back into the hill - balance. Weight o the downhill ski, balance. Yes when you get into angulation you are talking technique to achieve proper balance. Technique, IMO is a collection means to focus and concentrate one's balance to reach a desired effect, in this case control of skis while skiing harder terrain. As I stated before, plenty of skiers, including a lot of intermediates, have the technique skills to turn and look good doing so on less than challenging terrain. They know the technique but they cant use it because they don't understand that's it's all about balance.

 

[2knees]

I disagree. Well yes good technique is important, but what is good technique is not an exact thing. Many coaches would change Bode Miller's Technique yet it works for him. An intermediate, terminal or otherwise, will know how to turn their skis. Still, they struggle on harder terrain. Why? Balance! As I stated in my earlier post, I have seen plenty of skiers who thought they were good, and even looked good on easier terrain. Take them to the steeps or the bumps and the fall apart. The most important thing is balance. You can split hairs, and maybe have to, by saying you need to have your weight (balance) on this edge or that edge, but it still boils down to balance.

I tend to agree with what your saying here. What good is technique if there is no balance. You have to have balance to do anything. all else follows.

 

[mondeo]

I tend to agree with what your saying here. What good is technique if there is no balance. You have to have balance to do anything. all else follows.

But what is good balance without technique? Sure you can stand up straight, but if you can't lay the ski on edge while carving a non-skidded turn, who cares?

 

[2knees]

But what is good balance without technique? Sure you can stand up straight, but if you can't lay the ski on edge while carving a non-skidded turn, who cares?

balanced diet
balanced budget
balanced lifestyle


its all about balance these days. geeez.

 

[bigbog]

Hammer......guess I might as well get into this, just about everyone else with Web access is:lol:. Ya...make note of what bindings you have..a bootguy will know what ramp angle it possesses..then get yourself to a bootguy, get thee aligned(fore/aft..& laterally). Bootguy can assess your feet/leg/knee setup...and then can experiment and see where your best stance will be.
One can stand as upright as can be, but if your setup has you falling forward so that you have to lean back and pressure the back of your boot in order to keep from going "over the handlebars"...you'll constantly be in recovery mode = not the way to spend a day.
Things in the physical chain can change a little in just a year = the yearly checkup isn't always just for our cars....
It's a lot easier to be relaxed when you're standing relatively flat on skis....and relaxation is key to good, in-balance skiing...duh(nothing new)..LOL.
$.01

....stuff snipped....

.I'm rambling again...just got my liners today, tomorrow get them heated a bit & fitted...am I ever amped.
Tuesday day #1....

 

[mister moose]

balanced diet

OK, so you'd be happy eating tofu, broccoli and eggs for lunch while I have a turkey sandwich? You're having a balanced diet.

No, I'm saying that an intermediate with some basic technique skills needs to think about balance. Getting your weight forward, for example is balance. Don't lean back into the hill - balance. Weight on the downhill ski, balance. Yes when you get into angulation you are talking technique to achieve proper balance. Technique, IMO is a collection means to focus and concentrate one's balance to reach a desired effect, in this case control of skis while skiing harder terrain. As I stated before, plenty of skiers, including a lot of intermediates, have the technique skills to turn and look good doing so on less than challenging terrain. They know the technique but they cant use it because they don't understand that's it's all about balance.

You are talking about choosing where to place your 'balance'. That's technique. I'm using quotes because I wouldn't say it that way. I would say center of effort, or pressure, or weight. Balance is the art of keeping it there once you place it there.

Also, I disagree on the blue example. Intermediates look good on easy slopes but fall apart on more challenging slopes because first and foremost their technique is holding them back. Their choice of when or where to place their 'balance' is holding them back. Also, they tend to have less tools at their disposal, tools and technique they need to do well on steeper slopes. Balance is the act of staying at equilibrium, not choice of body position, and not choice of movement type.

I don't mind agreeing to disagree. We're not going to change the world here.

 

[hammer]

Hammer......guess I might as well get into this, just about everyone else with Web access is:lol:. Ya...make note of what bindings you have..a bootguy will know what ramp angle it possesses..then get yourself to a bootguy, get thee aligned(fore/aft..& laterally). Bootguy can assess your feet/leg/knee setup...and then can experiment and see where your best stance will be.
One can stand as upright as can be, but if your setup has you falling forward so that you have to lean back and pressure the back of your boot in order to keep from going "over the handlebars"...you'll constantly be in recovery mode = not the way to spend a day.
Things in the physical chain can change a little in just a year = the yearly checkup isn't always just for our cars....
It's a lot easier to be relaxed when you're standing relatively flat on skis....and relaxation is key to good, in-balance skiing...imho.
$.01

Been to Jeff Bokum so I think the alignment stuff is set. Only problem is that there are times when I feel like my boots (Tecnicas) have a lot of forward lean. Not sure if I'm overcompensating there and ending up in the backseat, but it's something I'm aware of.

Lots of stuff here about balance and technique...guessing a lot of both is important unless one is athletic enough to make up for it, which I definitely am not.

 

[2knees]

OK, so you'd be happy eating tofu, broccoli and eggs for lunch

and chase it down with a nice V-8!


I will not be goaded into a real discussion.....:lol:

 

[RISkier]

I read one of Harb's books a while back, "Essentials of Skiing". It has a lot of useful information, but one thing I don't like about his approach is he talks about how things feel rather than the actual physics of what's happening at the edges.

For example, he says that you never need to use any rotary input on the skis. Just tipping and balancing will get the job of carving turns done. But I'd say that's baloney.

There's no way two unconnected skis are going to stay parallel without at least some moderate rotary input to fine tune their alignment. People may not feel like they are adding any steering inputs to the skis since it's subtle and perhaps happening instinctively, but those inputs are happening and are necessary.

Interesting comments. Harb has a real axe to grind with PSIA and is kind of a lightening rod. I don't know enough of the details regarding the specific origin but I'm certain aware of personal acrimony between Harb and some PSIA folks. There's a degree to which the PMTS folks resemble a religious cult. For a true believer it's either Harb's way or it's the wrong way. We have a level III instructor who is a good friend and who I think skis brilliantly. He thinks Harb provides useful tools and drills, but would say Harb misses a lot of skills. Lots of folks rave about John Clendenin. We ended up having beers with a couple of folks who had worked with Clendenin; they basically said they went from non bump skiers to seeking out bumps all the time. I've looked at his stuff. We took a group lesson at Breck last year and I'll bet our instructor had worked with Clendenin. He was really teaching us to use the inside ski edges and use soft edging in many situations. I thought it really improved my skiing. While I think the world of ski instruction is much broader than PMTS, I do think that many of the drills Harb uses are excellent. But I do get tired of the PMTS vs PSIA crusade.

 

[crank]

Interesting comments. Harb has a real axe to grind with PSIA and is kind of a lightening rod. I don't know enough of the details regarding the specific origin but I'm certain aware of personal acrimony between Harb and some PSIA folks. There's a degree to which the PMTS folks resemble a religious cult. For a true believer it's either Harb's way or it's the wrong way. We have a level III instructor who is a good friend and who I think skis brilliantly. He thinks Harb provides useful tools and drills, but would say Harb misses a lot of skills. Lots of folks rave about John Clendenin. We ended up having beers with a couple of folks who had worked with Clendenin; they basically said they went from non bump skiers to seeking out bumps all the time. I've looked at his stuff. We took a group lesson at Breck last year and I'll bet our instructor had worked with Clendenin. He was really teaching us to use the inside ski edges and use soft edging in many situations. I thought it really improved my skiing. While I think the world of ski instruction is much broader than PMTS, I do think that many of the drills Harb uses are excellent. But I do get tired of the PMTS vs PSIA crusade.

1. Yes there is more than one way to skin the cat.

2. Can't all of us skiers get along?

3. I agree to disagree...... and...

4. Who was that masked man?

 

[riverc0il]

I disagree. Well yes good technique is important, but what is good technique is not an exact thing. Many coaches would change Bode Miller's Technique yet it works for him. An intermediate, terminal or otherwise, will know how to turn their skis.

I couldn't disagree more with all of this. Bode not having good Technique? Intermediates who fall apart in steeper terrain don't have good technique. I don't recall ever seeing an intermediate that truly understood and knew how to make a good turn. If they did, they wouldn't be intermediates. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But this is no longer splitting hairs, IMO.

 

[riverc0il]

As I stated before, plenty of skiers, including a lot of intermediates, have the technique skills to turn and look good doing so on less than challenging terrain. They know the technique but they cant use it because they don't understand that's it's all about balance.

How is balancing on intermediate terrain different than balancing on steeper terrain? What changes besides the pitch of the terrain?

I think of it completely differently. The steeper terrain amplifies the technical deficiencies that were still there, but more easily hidden, on the easier terrain. Its easy to be sloppy on easy terrain. Its why skiers who don't usually ski ice have a hard time of things when it gets slippery. They never angulate or pressure the ski just right... it just shows more visibly when conditions get tough.

Balance is very very important. Getting forward on your skis may be the hardest thing to get a terminal intermediate doing. But you can have all the balance in the world and not have the technical prowess to get safely down a challenging run.

Another thing to look at is bumps vs steep groomers. A skier with GREAT balance can fall apart in the bumps because they don't absorb the bumps properly. That is a technical issue.

 

[riverc0il]

I read one of Harb's books a while back, "Essentials of Skiing". It has a lot of useful information, but one thing I don't like about his approach is he talks about how things feel rather than the actual physics of what's happening at the edges.

For example, he says that you never need to use any rotary input on the skis. Just tipping and balancing will get the job of carving turns done. But I'd say that's baloney.

There's no way two unconnected skis are going to stay parallel without at least some moderate rotary input to fine tune their alignment. People may not feel like they are adding any steering inputs to the skis since it's subtle and perhaps happening instinctively, but those inputs are happening and are necessary.

Great observations here. I have never read this book (nor any ski technique book for that matter). But I think Harb would be doing his readers a disservice if he is suggesting skiers just learn how to make perfect carves relying exclusively on setting the edge, pressuring the ski, and going along for the ride.

Rotary input is indeed important. Exclusive control of the skis without rotary is difficult to do at all times unless you have a wide open slope with no obstacles, other skiers, changing terrain, etc. I shoot for this type of turn. I've lost my touch since skiing trees and bumps and powder became my major focus. It feels really nice when you can whip your skis around in tight arcs without any rotary or speed scrubbing skid motions. But that is difficult to do exclusively and I don't think should be an ultimate of a technique book geared towards developing or intermediate skiers.