What do you think , NY in the Ski Biz???

[JimmyPete]

I have a topic that may be dangerous to raise. Should New York State be in the Ski Business. Where do I come in . I don't know. I really like Belleayre, Gore and Whiteface. Have skied and enjoyed all three and must say my recent trip to Gore was great. Also pretty much a Liberal politically, so I'm not big on privatizing, don't like school vouchers, private prisons, restricted beaches, but what do you think. Should New York be in the Ski business? Belleayre competes with Windham, Plattekill and Hunter. Gore and Whiteface are great stand alone resorts, and greatly help the local economy. Keep as is, rent? or sell. I hear that Gore makes money for the State true? False? I also think to our advantage Gore being a state run area was able to beat back environmentalist objections to tapping the Hudson. Once they started using Hudson water the place was finally able to make enough snow. If it had been private I bet that the Legislature would not have allowed this.I am not coming at this politically but what is best for Skiing. So no fights kids just semi intelligent chatter.:

 

[Scruffy]

Why not, it's been working. Belleayre makes money for the state from all accounts I hear, but it's hard for them to prove it since the revenue goes into the state general fund; at least that's the story I've heard time and again from many sources. Of course I don't have any inside knowledge about the accounting end of their operation.
Belleayre only marginally competes with Windham, Plattekill and Hunter in my opinion, but then again the peeps I ski with don't ski the Bell unless it's spring and Hunter closes early. The lift lines are already long enough at Hunter and Windham on the weekends, can you imagine if Belleayre wasn't there, it would be unbareable.

Gore is vital to the economy around North Creek, so in that sense it serves it's mission same with Whiteface, it's vital to the LP area economy. I'd like to see better synergy between the the three and better accounting of costs and revenue so a better picture of cost benefit could be painted.

 

[deadheadskier]

.I am not coming at this politically but what is best for Skiing. So no fights kids just semi intelligent chatter.:

Best for skiing in what way?

There have been 100s of private ski ownership companies that have run areas into the ground or gone belly up and have been forced to sell their holdings.

There were two giants 10 years ago in American Skiing Company and Intrawest.......one is gone, and one has been teetering on doing the same in recent years.

There are a number of state run areas around the country that frequently run at a loss having to draw on taxpayer money to operate. Others that managed to sustain themselves.

I don't think you can necessarily say that Bell, Gore and Whiteface would do better as privately run areas. It would depend entirely on whether or not those companies had deep pockets and ran ski areas well. The money seems to be in real estate though. Any private operator that would take on those operations would be doing so in hopes of developing real estate. That's what Okemo has done with state owned Mt. Sunapee in NH. They improved the area immensely, but their real estate deal got shot down. I bet they'd never have gotten involved if they knew that development would not get approved.

we'll see if this topic can remain intelligent chatter. there's some very strong political opinions on these boards regarding state run ski areas

 

[catskills]

In 1947 the voters answered this very question. It may be too late to change it now.

Belleayre was created on forever wild land in the Catskill Forest Preserve by virtue of an amendment to the New York State Constitution approved in 1947 by voters in the state and can never “be leased, sold or exchanged or be taken by any corporation, public or private.” It also notes that the voters of the state approved another constitutional amendment in 1987 authorizing an expansion of Belleayre.

Personally I think NY State has a lot more un-tapped skiing and riding vertical mountain resources which if done properly could have far exceed anything Vermont has. Unfortunately NY state had this forever wild law and decided to go into the ski business. The result is that Vermont kicks NY States a$$ when it comes to vacation dollars spent on skiing and riding. Its probably too late to change all this now. In order for private ski areas to make a profit, the private ski areas must sell real estate land and condos adjoining the ski area.

As was already mentioned the lift lines are long enough at Hunter and Windham. Its interesting that Jackson Hole gets 5,000 customers on their busiest days, which is the same number for catskill resorts Belleayre, Hunter, or Windham. One big difference is that Jackson Hole has a lot more acreage than any Catskill mountain resort. This raises the question just how many skiers and riders do you want to squeeze onto postage stamp size ski resorts before it starts to impact your other business which is selling real estate.

I can remember in the 1960s NY state farmers made more maple syrup than Vermont. For example, the Lawerence Farm made over 7,000 gallons of maple syrup every spring, which was then trucked to Vermont to be stamped with Made in Vermont. :blink: Like maple syrup, NY State has the mountain vertical resources that has the potential to far exceed Vermont's skier and rider visits per year. What did NY State do with these mountain resources recently? NY State decided to send some idiots around telling ski areas that the climate is changing and its going to get real warm in NY state in the next couple of years. uke:

 

[deadheadskier]

Personally I think NY State has a lot more un-tapped skiing and riding vertical mountain resources which if done properly could have far exceed anything Vermont has. Unfortunately NY state had this forever wild law and decided to go into the ski business. The result is that Vermont kicks NY States a$$ when it comes to vacation dollars spent on skiing and riding. Its probably too late to change all this now. In order for private ski areas to make a profit, the private ski areas must sell real estate land and condos adjoining the ski area.

You'll get no argument from me. The Catskills and Adirondacks OWN the Greens in terms of vertical mountain resources. Vt has the edge in natural snow

NH has many untapped mountains that would make great ski areas as well. Perhaps an even worse disadvantage to VT for natural snow than NY has though.

I think NY and skiing in general would be better served in selling off some of it's Adirondack and Catskill acreage to private developers then leasing the areas it already operates. This economy right now and the sports stagnant growth makes it an unfavorable time for new resort development, but that won't always be the case. We live in a society of convenience. NY could definitely keep a lot of skiers in state that currently go to VT if it had larger areas to compete against the VT areas. The Catskills I believe have more peaks 3500 feet and higher than the entire state of VT.

 

[dmc]

It's very simple...

If the ski area can turn a profit and doesn't take any money better spent on critical state resources AND doesn't negatively impact any private ski areas by using realistic marketing techniques on par with what a private ski area can do...

Then why not..

 

[JimmyPete]

In 1947 the voters answered this very question. It may be too late to change it now.

Belleayre was created on forever wild land in the Catskill Forest Preserve by virtue of an amendment to the New York State Constitution approved in 1947 by voters in the state and can never “be leased, sold or exchanged or be taken by any corporation, public or private.” It also notes that the voters of the state approved another constitutional amendment in 1987 authorizing an expansion of Belleayre.

Personally I think NY State has a lot more un-tapped skiing and riding vertical mountain resources which if done properly could have far exceed anything Vermont has. Unfortunately NY state had this forever wild law and decided to go into the ski business. The result is that Vermont kicks NY States a$$ when it comes to vacation dollars spent on skiing and riding. Its probably too late to change all this now. In order for private ski areas to make a profit, the private ski areas must sell real estate land and condos adjoining the ski area.

As was already mentioned the lift lines are long enough at Hunter and Windham. Its interesting that Jackson Hole gets 5,000 customers on their busiest days, which is the same number for catskill resorts Belleayre, Hunter, or Windham. One big difference is that Jackson Hole has a lot more acreage than any Catskill mountain resort. This raises the question just how many skiers and riders do you want to squeeze onto postage stamp size ski resorts before it starts to impact your other business which is selling real estate.

I can remember in the 1960s NY state farmers made more maple syrup than Vermont. For example, the Lawerence Farm made over 7,000 gallons of maple syrup every spring, which was then trucked to Vermont to be stamped with Made in Vermont. :blink: Like maple syrup, NY State has the mountain vertical resources that has the potential to far exceed Vermont's skier and rider visits per year. What did NY State do with these mountain resources recently? NY State decided to send some idiots around telling ski areas that the climate is changing and its going to get real warm in NY state in the next couple of years. uke:

You can't really compare a western area like Jackson Hole- They simply don't need to use snowmaking on such a consistent basis,

 

[JimmyPete]

Best for skiing in what way?

There have been 100s of private ski ownership companies that have run areas into the ground or gone belly up and have been forced to sell their holdings.

There were two giants 10 years ago in American Skiing Company and Intrawest.......one is gone, and one has been teetering on doing the same in recent years.

There are a number of state run areas around the country that frequently run at a loss having to draw on taxpayer money to operate. Others that managed to sustain themselves.

I don't think you can necessarily say that Bell, Gore and Whiteface would do better as privately run areas. It would depend entirely on whether or not those companies had deep pockets and ran ski areas well. The money seems to be in real estate though. Any private operator that would take on those operations would be doing so in hopes of developing real estate. That's what Okemo has done with state owned Mt. Sunapee in NH. They improved the area immensely, but their real estate deal got shot down. I bet they'd never have gotten involved if they knew that development would not get approved.

we'll see if this topic can remain intelligent chatter. there's some very strong political opinions on these boards regarding state run ski areas

Isn't there a danger in a tough time like now, the state will begin to cannibalize the revenue from State owned areas, or in a bad ski year not supply necessary revenues, A private company could draw on revenues from other areas or issue bonds or take loans to improve or at least keep up areas. I really don't have a big problem with some judicious real estate development, I think that it helps the local economy , which God knows North Creek needs.

 

[dmc]

You can't really compare a western area like Jackson Hole- They simply don't need to use snowmaking on such a consistent basis,

he was comparing size not snowmaking... you got a snowmaking issue don't you..

 

[dmc]

Isn't there a danger in a tough time like now, the state will begin to cannibalize the revenue from State owned areas, or in a bad ski year not supply necessary revenues, A private company could draw on revenues from other areas or issue bonds or take loans to improve or at least keep up areas. I really don't have a big problem with some judicious real estate development, I think that it helps the local economy , which God knows North Creek needs.

You assuming that a profit is being made and the costs are getting covered..

And that the area isn't already harming other areas with business practices funded by the state govt..

And that the local people actually want the development..

 

[deadheadskier]

Isn't there a danger in a tough time like now, the state will begin to cannibalize the revenue from State owned areas, or in a bad ski year not supply necessary revenues, A private company could draw on revenues from other areas or issue bonds or take loans to improve or at least keep up areas. I really don't have a big problem with some judicious real estate development, I think that it helps the local economy , which God knows North Creek needs.

sure there is

but there's plenty of risk with private ownership as well. Look at Tenney Mountain and Mount Ascutney just this year. There's two privately held 1400+ vert and 150 acre plus mountains that closed their doors this year. I personally don't see either being bought and brought back to life anytime soon. Why couldn't they secure loans to make improvements? Why did larger resort companies like American Ski Company fail/

There is no guarantee that by leasing Bell, Gore and WF that those areas would do better under private management.

I can appreciate the argument from taxpayers that they don't want state financial resources allocated towards recreation, especially during budget shortfall situations. But, your argument is not what's better for the taxpayer. Your argument is what's better for skiing. I don't think an argument can be made whether those areas in NY will do better OR worse under private ownership.

 

[catskills]

Also note that Gore is in direct competition with Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham. If you read the Gore Unit Management plan 55 percent of Gore's customers come from the Hudson River Valley and points south of the Hudson River valley. This means 55 percent of Gore's customers drive past the Catskill Mountain ski areas to get to Gore.

Not sure how this information plays into the question of whats best for NY State skiers and riders. Personally I think Plattekill could benefit from having more skiers and riders. As for Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham, I personally think they are pretty much maxed out on weekends and holiday periods.

The fact that people are willing to drive past Catskill resorts to go to Gore during peak times is probably a good thing for Catskill Mountain resort skiers and riders. That said I know mountain managers have a keen eye when it comes to watching their customer visits, revenue, snowmaking budget and profit margin. I am sure Catskill mountain resort managers would rather have those Gore customers pull off Thruway exits 19, 20, and 21.

Here is a question. If Gore and Whiteface did not exist, would the privately owned area called Bearpen near Prattsville be able to support a large Okemo like resort?

 

[RootDKJ]

Speaking for myself, I could really care less who owns/operates the area I'm skiing at. If the lifts are running, and groomers are grooming, with some snowmaking to fill the gaps, I'm happy. If the area is profitable, and they reinvest in capital improvements we win.

 

[campgottagopee]

Speaking for myself, I could really care less who owns/operates the area I'm skiing at. If the lifts are running, and groomers are grooming, with some snowmaking to fill the gaps, I'm happy. If the area is profitable, and they reinvest in capital improvements we win.

This, and as long as WF continus to give all GP season pass holders 50% off lift tickets I'm cool with it.

 

[RootDKJ]

This, and as long as WF continus to give all GP season pass holders 50% off lift tickets I'm cool with it.

Shit..forgot to mention cold flowing beer.

 

[campgottagopee]

Shit..forgot to mention cold flowing beer.

That's a given :beer:

No words need to be spoken

 

[JimmyPete]

Also note that Gore is in direct competition with Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham. If you read the Gore Unit Management plan 55 percent of Gore's customers come from the Hudson River Valley and points south of the Hudson River valley. This means 55 percent of Gore's customers drive past the Catskill Mountain ski areas to get to Gore.

Not sure how this information plays into the question of whats best for NY State skiers and riders. Personally I think Plattekill could benefit from having more skiers and riders. As for Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham, I personally think they are pretty much maxed out on weekends and holiday periods.

The fact that people are willing to drive past Catskill resorts to go to Gore during peak times is probably a good thing for Catskill Mountain resort skiers and riders. That said I know mountain managers have a keen eye when it comes to watching their customer visits, revenue, snowmaking budget and profit margin. I am sure Catskill mountain resort managers would rather have those Gore customers pull off Thruway exits 19, 20, and 21.

Here is a question. If Gore and Whiteface did not exist, would the privately owned area called Bearpen near Prattsville be able to support a large Okemo like resort?

Never heard of Bearpen, certainly not asking for no Gore or Whiteface just what's better private or State owned. Is it dangerous to depend on the State in times like this??? I love Gore and Whiteface.
I really stopped going to the Catskills for day trips from NJ on Weekends. Belleayre used to be a good day trip but in the last two years has really been discovered. Many of my friends are afraid of Plattekill, we are older and no longer powder or bump hounds. Like to take some corduroy or packed P ski till 1 and have a beer. On a good day the bumps at Gore or Belleayre are doable for a run or two. Should we be spooked about Plattekill????

 

[x10003q]

Never heard of Bearpen, certainly not asking for no Gore or Whiteface just what's better private or State owned. Is it dangerous to depend on the State in times like this??? I love Gore and Whiteface.
I really stopped going to the Catskills for day trips from NJ on Weekends. Belleayre used to be a good day trip but in the last two years has really been discovered. Many of my friends are afraid of Plattekill, we are older and no longer powder or bump hounds. Like to take some corduroy or packed P ski till 1 and have a beer. On a good day the bumps at Gore or Belleayre are doable for a run or two. Should we be spooked about Plattekill????

Bearpen was developed as the Princeton Snow Bowl in the mid 1950s. It was about 15 miles past Hunter with about 1900 vertical and a lot of area to work with. It is in an area that gets more snow than Hunter - somewhat like Plattekill. It is just outside the Catskill Park so it was not limited by the Forever Wild rules inside the Park. A conflict over land ownership surveys doomed the place.

Bearpen info

Plattekill is a great area and you should not be spooked. There is plenty of cruising terrain.
It is never crowded on the weekends which is a great thing for weekend skiing in the Catskills.

It was mentioned in the thread that Gore and WF take skiers away from the Catskill areas. I do not think this is the case. The size and scope of Gore and WF matches up with the choices in Vermont. I do not think that skiers from the NYC metro area who are day tripping head up to Gore. Skiers farther north in the Hudson Valley who do day trip to Gore also have many choices in southern VT. For me Gore is for the weekend and the Catskills are for the day. In my 45 years of skiing I have only stayed overnight in the Catskills (4x) when I had weekend races at Hunter. Maybe if there was a 400-500 acre/2000 vert resort (Bearpen) in the Catskills I would be less likely to head farther north.

 

[witch hobble]

Yes. They should. I've voiced my under informed opinion on the matter before. If the Empire State is truly still trying to build an empire, they should be in everybody's business.

 

[Scruffy]

Also note that Gore is in direct competition with Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham. If you read the Gore Unit Management plan 55 percent of Gore's customers come from the Hudson River Valley and points south of the Hudson River valley. This means 55 percent of Gore's customers drive past the Catskill Mountain ski areas to get to Gore.

Not sure how this information plays into the question of whats best for NY State skiers and riders. Personally I think Plattekill could benefit from having more skiers and riders. As for Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham, I personally think they are pretty much maxed out on weekends and holiday periods.

The fact that people are willing to drive past Catskill resorts to go to Gore during peak times is probably a good thing for Catskill Mountain resort skiers and riders. That said I know mountain managers have a keen eye when it comes to watching their customer visits, revenue, snowmaking budget and profit margin. I am sure Catskill mountain resort managers would rather have those Gore customers pull off Thruway exits 19, 20, and 21.

Here is a question. If Gore and Whiteface did not exist, would the privately owned area called Bearpen near Prattsville be able to support a large Okemo like resort?

"This means 55 percent of Gore's customers drive past the Catskill Mountain ski areas to get to Gore"
If those numbers are correct, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, then those skiers are looking for something different than the 3 Catskill resorts mentioned anyway. I live in the Hudson Valley, ski mostly Hunter and Platikill, but spend many a day skiing Vermont, Maine, Gore and WF. It's good to have choices, especially when all the northeast mountains are relatively small compared to western resorts. Also, there is probably a bit of socioeconomics going on with respect to Gore. The surrounding area around Gore is somewhat economically depressed. There is only so many locals that can afford to ski Gore, so I'd bet a large percentage of skiers at Gore on any given weekend are from Albany and south. So yes Gore is in competition with the Catskill resorts, but no more than Vermont.

I'd love to see Bearpen pulled up from the ashes. To answer your question, if Gore wasn't in the picture then maybe, WF I don't know ,its too far away and LP is a destination all unto its self that I think it has it's own draw.