Seriously? People were absolutely rioting the last few years of ASC. Couldnt WAIT (warp thats for you) to get rid of them.
Watch what you wish for.
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Keep Killington Open Longer
- Thread starter andyzee
- Start date
Seriously? People were absolutely rioting the last few years of ASC. Couldnt WAIT (warp thats for you) to get rid of them.
Watch what you wish for.
Black Phantom
Active member
How is powdr's track record at other resorts? Keeping folks happy?
I think the bachelor locals were less then pleased with Powdr's efforts out there.
oakapple
New member
What you seem to be saying is: for all its faults, you still haven't found a better option than Killington. I mean, if there were something better, a far more sensible approach would be to take your skiing dollars elsewhere.
I mean, if I'm served a poor dinner at a local restaurant, I don't sue or complain about the business model. I just go to another restaurant next time. There are plenty of great restaurants. I don't waste time bemoaning the bad ones.
All of this griping about Killington suggests a contradiction: although it's not what we want, it's still better than most (or indeed all) of the alternatives.
mondeo
New member
Nobody's complaining about Killington. They're complaining about POWDR.
oakapple
New member
For the foreseeable future, they're one and the same.
drjeff
Well-known member
As I recall, it was too crowded, the early season options have stunk since K-1 went in, all the money that ASC was making back East was being shipped out West, etc, etc, etc
Black Phantom
Active member
Where are you skiing at this weekend?
mondeo
New member
So because it's a great mountain, we should just bend over and take it from the guys that run it?
This isn't about them closing down Bear a week earlier than they should've one time. This is about a continuous display of apathy towards their season pass holders, and a lack of understanding their market. If it isn't perceived to help day ticket sales, it doesn't happen.
Well, they're still sending all their money out West. It's a nice new 6 pack that Copper's getting. At this point I'm guessing nothing more than a coat of paint and new mulch this summer for Killington, given that they only have a couple weeks before pass prices go up. Doubling prices has the effect of reducing crowding. Plus I didn't join the board until after POWDR took over, so I've seen a massive increase in displeasure with the new guys relative to ASC. :razz:
oakapple
New member
Hey, I'm just making an empirical observation. If there were something much better than POWDR is now offering at Killington, you'd just go there, and say, "Bye, bye." The same as if you get poor service at a restaurant, a gas station, a shoe store, or a movie theater. If you don't like one, there are many others.
The reason you feel so passionately about Killington is that, despite what POWDR has done, better options don't really exist. Even in its curtailed state, Killington is still better than most or all of the relevant competition.
And if POWDR doesn't understand the market, apparently their competitors don't either. If Killington were getting it wrong, you'd think it creates an opportunity for smarter operators to make money off of POWDR's foolishness. And yet, practically the whole East Coast plans to be closed by May 1, if they haven't already. The only exceptions are much farther north of Killington, and will be open for just a couple of extra weekends, at most.
As a skier, I would much prefer to see Killington open as late in the year as there is snow cover. But I'm not at all convinced that POWDR is getting it wrong from a business perspective (and they are, after all, a business). There's no great evidence of a lucrative ski market in the Northeast past April.
in addition to lodging etc, the nearest competitive "restaurants" are about an hour north. the xtra hour on a weekly basis is prohibitive, at least for me from nyc or else i'd be gone.
regarding asc, we all know their mistakes. they came in with guns blazing - obviously too much too soon or more than they shoulda done. 4 lifts, including 2 hsq's & an 8-person gondi in the first 2 yrs. major snowmaking improvements including the woodward reservoir connection. perhaps most importantly they understood the history & culture at k. their first season (1996-97) featured the latest close & one of the longest season's (oct 4 - june 22). as recently as 2003 they were still open memorial weekend and in their final season, running on financial fumes, they still closed may 6. powdr's first season they closed april 20, the earliest in over 40 yrs.
mondeo
New member
I don't really care about May 8th skiing, my ski house lease is up May 1st anyways. I don't think there's enough of a market for skiing beyond probably next weekend in the East to make more than a few areas profitable, and only enough for 1 after May 1st. But their overall operations (closing early their first year of ownership, closing with full coverage on Superstar last year based on a weather forecast a couple weeks out, schizo approaches to grooming and snowmaking, killing BMMC, the list goes on) are widely perceived to display a lack of understanding of the local market and ignoring the desires of customers. Running the SPQ for one additional weekend would have done wonders in reversing that sentiment.
While I'm too tied down there to move to a different mountain, that doesn't mean everyone is. By access road traffic counts, business is down anywhere between 8-15% relative to POWDR's first year. Meanwhile, Sugarloaf's claimed King of Spring, Sunday River's first to open (giving Boyne the season title for passholders,) there have been large migrations of K skiers to Sugarbush and Jay to close out the season, etc. People have left Killington, and the ones still there aren't happy with the owners (in general.) I hear Highway Star is going to be skiing at Sunday River next year.
Edd
Well-known member
Sigh..if only. Then I learn how to do a ski-off proper. I've been reading this thread with interest and, it occurred to me this morning, that the SR skiers who post here have been downright content over the years compared to the Kmart folks.
There may be more K skiers here, therefore more opinions. Or the SR people may be less demanding (it's the Maine in them). Maybe SR just understands their clientele better.
Riverskier
Active member
I suspect it is all of the above. I personally just don't have much to complain about. A lot to be happy about though- October to May season, affordable passes, investment in the mountain, management that listens and communicates with their customers, etc.. Life is good for this SR skier/Boyne Pass holder.
drjeff
Well-known member
Serious question here. Does anyone REALLY know if the "old" K model of late season "ski until total meltout" operations was VERY profitable vs. "just break even"???
don't know if it's necessarily understanding clientele better. unfortunately for powdr, killington is held up to different expectations than sunday river or other areas due to their past history and culture. regarding closings, while i no longer expect a memorial weekend closing as they had done for about 25 yrs, like mondeo mentions, last season they closed a week earlier than their original announced closing with plenty of snow on superstar. their first season, they closed even earlier, again with plenty of snow. this past weekend, a lift (even the bear quad) should have been run at bear. if running that one lift would have had that much impact on their bottom line, then they must be in much bigger financial trouble than any of us realize.
SkiFanE
New member
SR skier here, but I'm not 'from' Maine. I'm not disappointed with the 4/24 closing date. If I still feel like skiing, I'll head to Sugarloaf. Probably because I started skiing in October :razz: . Skiing in Oct does not compare to spring, but something about the stoke and being able to finally ski is huge then. If I didn't start skiing until Thanksgiving, I may not be as happy with the closing date. I have only skied one day in May in my life, at K. Their culture was king of the spring then. So I can see how those that relied on that are disappointed. Nevermind they didn't even open until a month or so after SR. If I don't ski May this year (at SL), I still skied 7 months at SR. Damn happy about that, will get day 70 in this weekend.
andyzee
New member
Can you measure the advertising factor as opposed to just straight profitablity? Don't have anything to back it up, but have to guess that model amounted to many more season passes being sold.
mondeo
New member
Probably not. Not even ASC or POWDR, I'd guess. But what's the cost of running 1 lift, 5 hours a day (10-3), for two days? 3 people staffing for 6 hours @ $20/ hour (including overhead,) call it $800 in staffing. 900hp motor, 12 hours of operation, $0.25/kw-hr, $2K. Throw in another $1K in there for whatever. Under $5K for the weekend. What the hell, double it. $10K.
All they need to lose is 10 unlimited passholders to make it not break even. Or not sell 150 day tickets. Or 5 passholders and 40 weekend guests. That isn't that much, considering the additional mess that it created with parking. There are other obstacles besides cost here which, given the turnaround on Ramshead the week prior, I'm guessing were the deciding factor (finding the people to actually do the work, ski patrol, etc.) but I have a feeling that other mountains would have figured something out. I mean, how much credit would they get for having Nyberg & co. bumping chairs for a couple hours on the weekend? "Plans were to close, but we knew how much you wanted it, so everyone on the team chipped in."
Riverskier
Active member
I don't have an answer, but I will say that looking at day ticket sales/F&B revenue won't produce an accurate picture regardless of the result. There are so many other factors that can't easily be quantified. How many seasons passes did they sell simply because they could be used from October to June when the season at other mountains was 2+ months shorter? I would venture to guess quite a few. How many people came back to K mid-winter after enjoying the early/late season product? Real estate purchases due to long season? Skier visits based on K's reputation as the Beast that was created largely by their long seasons? I could go on, but the fact is there are many more variables at play in determining whether a late season strategy is profitable other than day to day profit and loss.
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