BFP Article on the "Paradox" of Ski Resort Development (JPR)

[kingdom-tele]

I explicitly didn't mention strip malls, etc, since there IS a big difference between development at a ski resort that relies mainly on short term visitors and development in the surrounding areas of businesses that are there and serve more yera round locals as opposed to visitors. A say Walmart or a McDonalds or free standing Starbucks isn't going to pop up by Jay because of what they're building any time soon (if ever) since there just isn't, and likely never will be the full time, year round population base to support that. But if the development at Jay (or any other ski area that wants to do something like that) brings in enough short term visitors to allow a local to say open up a new restaurant or bar or ski or bike shop, something that is based more on the short term visitor than the year round resident for a significant portion of their yearly revenue, then that's a win/win thing.

It's a very long leap from going from a rural area to even a surburban area, especially when there's no "major" population base nearby

glad your so confident that isn't the next step. but I'm sure you've seen how the land has been zoned all along rt 101 and 242.

doesn't J already have a restaurant? why would anyone need to go to a "local" establishment with an all inclusive mega resort providing the necessary ammentities

 

[drjeff]

glad your so confident that isn't the next step. but I'm sure you've seen how the land has been zoned all along rt 101 and 242.

doesn't J already have a restaurant? why would anyone need to go to a "local" establishment with an all inclusive mega resort providing the necessary ammentities

For the exact same reason that I see week in and week about at the Southern end of VT at Mount Snow. There's a bunch of good eating opportunities that are owned by the resort that some people go to. Then there are more good eating opportunities, both newly opened within the last few years in 3 or 4 instances and others that have been there for decades. It's about the choices. The newly opened ones did so essentially as a direct result of the increased vistor traffic that has come to Mount Snow since Peak Resorts bought them almost 5 years ago and has since invested over 25 million in upgrades too. People see the "new" options and that often is enough to get them to come try the mountain, and then if they like what the mountain has done, they'll come back. Most of these people will never become full time residents of the area, most won't even buy property there and will just come a few days a year and spend their money, both at the resort and in surrounding businesses. There haven't been and there currently aren't any publically known plans to be putting in any Walmart's, Super sized Grocery Stores or stand alone Starbucks near Mount Snow and they've been doing a far greater number of skier visits than Jay has, and currently is doing per year for decades now. The year round population base just isn't there. People come and spend a bunch of $$ between say Christmas and mid March and then a much smaller number of folks show up for the summer. Every now and then you throw in a spike in weekend vistors for some special event, and that's that. Not enough to remotely consider any big box strip mall suburbia development.

 

[deadheadskier]

Not enough to remotely consider any big box strip mall suburbia development.

currently sure

but I thought the same thing of North Conway as a kid and look at the place now. It was pretty built up back then, but I was shocked when I first went back after about 20 years to see the Walmart, Home Depot, Applebees etc.

I certainly don't see Jay and Mt. Snow ever having the year round draw to develop like N.Conway has, but I can understand people guarding against "suburban" type development in the mountains.

 

[Black Phantom]

Keep Vermont a ghetto!

 

[thetrailboss]

FWIW- that "non sensitive" valley used to have a decent deer yard.

Maybe before 1965 or so when that area was developed...which was pre-Act 250.

And it is great to see economic development and jobs coming to the NEK.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Maybe before 1965 or so when that area was developed...which was pre-Act 250.

And it is great to see economic development and jobs coming to the NEK.

never realized the golf course was that old.

no question. jobs are great. the empathy for poor old NEK is palpable. hard to imagine any other way development could be beneficial to a community than to install overpriced infrastructure

selling the dream for people, everyone is dreaming of a condo with a view and a neighbor 8' away who you ignore, right?

 

[thetrailboss]

never realized the golf course was that old.

no question. jobs are great. the empathy for poor old NEK is palpable. hard to imagine any other way development could be beneficial to a community than to install overpriced infrastructure

selling the dream for people, everyone is dreaming of a condo with a view and a neighbor 8' away who you ignore, right?

I was referring to the Tram Base Area, where most of the work is being done.

And as to the whole sprawl argument, come on. That is not going to happen in the NEK anytime soon.

 

[kingdom-tele]

and I was referring to the reality that the development did have an impact on an environment that most would glance over as non sensitive

and for me, I'm not moving anywhere anytime soon, so I get to watch this vision of modern business transform the countryside, why wouldn't sprawl be the likely result, its already zoned for and waiting, seems an inevitable process.

 

[St. Bear]

and I was referring to the reality that the development did have an impact on an environment that most would glance over as non sensitive

and for me, I'm not moving anywhere anytime soon, so I get to watch this vision of modern business transform the countryside, why wouldn't sprawl be the likely result, its already zoned for and waiting, seems an inevitable process.

Manifest Destiny!

 

[AdironRider]

Kingdom seems to be stuck in the woe is me mentality that has made the NEK the economic doldrums what it is.

Get over yourself bud, you wax poetic about how you have it so hard but when development comes in to save the day you bitch about it as well. You sound like a Killington skier.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Kingdom seems to be stuck in the woe is me mentality that has made the NEK the economic doldrums what it is.

Get over yourself bud, you wax poetic about how you have it so hard but when development comes in to save the day you bitch about it as well. You sound like a Killington skier.

can always count on you for enlightenment. since you've spent so much time here, would love to hear your insight to the "woe is me mentality" running rampant here in the NEK, I'm not a business man so maybe learning more about how this trickle down effect is going to save the day and lead us out of the economic doldrums you speak of would be helpful

out of curiousity, do you believe every region should be blessed with super hero development?

 

[thetrailboss]

can always count on you for enlightenment. since you've spent so much time here, would love to hear your insight to the "woe is me mentality" running rampant here in the NEK, I'm not a business man so maybe learning more about how this trickle down effect is going to save the day and lead us out of the economic doldrums you speak of would be helpful

out of curiousity, do you believe every region should be blessed with super hero development?

People need jobs and if you are in Newport, as your profile says, then you know that Newport perennially has the highest unemployment in the entire state. JPR is bringing in a biotech firm that will bring some very good jobs to the community that are badly needed. I don't know what your exact situation is, but from what I have seen you are fortunate to either have a good job or to have the means to not need to work. You are lucky. But many in the NEK need the same opportunities as you have in order to survive. Simple as that. There can be a balance.

 

[kingdom-tele]

People need jobs and if you are in Newport, as your profile says, then you know that Newport perennially has the highest unemployment in the entire state. JPR is bringing in a biotech firm that will bring some very good jobs to the community that are badly needed. I don't know what your exact situation is, but from what I have seen you are fortunate to either have a good job or to have the means to not need to work. You are lucky. But many in the NEK need the same opportunities as you have in order to survive. Simple as that. There can be a balance.

I am fortunate. I do work in Newport. It does have the highest unemployment in the state.

but what they really need is training/education. it's not like the majority of the unemployed patronage up here is a bunch of wandering college degree carrying socialites, you know that TB. the white collar, multi seasonal jobs JPR are going to be filled largely by people from outside the NEK, there aren't that many qualified unemployed people kicking stones down main street here, they leave to find work. as a region based on agriculture the work force is far from a woe is me group, they bust their ass, and still live at or just above the level, it doesn't make them destitute or in need of "saving". your right, there can and should be a balance. rushing to build something designed to cater to the elite of the urban center was JPR business model, its working great, but its becoming further and further from simple appreciation many up here enjoy and even choose to live in, without the wonder and satisfaction money can provide

 

[AdironRider]

That is not JPR or anyone else's fault besides their own. So now they need jobs and someone to train them pro bono? If that is what they need, they can go out and get it, it shouldnt be provided for them. You honestly believe that Jay is going to turn into North Conway overnight? I seriously doubt it.

Its not that hard to comprehend. More tourism dollars equals more jobs, equals better economic standing for the community. If you guys arent qualified, thats noones fault but your own. Its unreasonable to think they should be hiring director and manager level positions only from NEK residents that arent qualified.

 

[drjeff]

That is not JPR or anyone else's fault besides their own. So now they need jobs and someone to train them pro bono? If that is what they need, they can go out and get it, it shouldnt be provided for them. You honestly believe that Jay is going to turn into North Conway overnight? I seriously doubt it.

Its not that hard to comprehend. More tourism dollars equals more jobs, equals better economic standing for the community. If you guys arent qualified, thats noones fault but your own. Its unreasonable to think they should be hiring director and manager level positions only from NEK residents that arent qualified.

Gotta agree with AR on this one. There does come a point with a getting larger, growing company where for certain key higher level positions, the company realistically has to look at the potential pool of people to hire not just from the standpoint of "who's the best IN THE AREA available?" but one of "who's the best available?"

If someone has the desire, but not the needed compliment of skills for the job, then in most cases, especially as a business owner, who would you be most drawn to? The potential hire who had the drive to go out and obtain those extra skill sets themselves or the potential hire who didn't take that same initiative?

 

[kingdom-tele]

That is not JPR or anyone else's fault besides their own. So now they need jobs and someone to train them pro bono? If that is what they need, they can go out and get it, it shouldnt be provided for them. You honestly believe that Jay is going to turn into North Conway overnight? I seriously doubt it.

Its not that hard to comprehend. More tourism dollars equals more jobs, equals better economic standing for the community. If you guys arent qualified, thats noones fault but your own. Its unreasonable to think they should be hiring director and manager level positions only from NEK residents that arent qualified.

dude, are you reading with 1 eye shut or what? thats the point I just made. so you fill the jobs from outside personnel, economic standing goes up for some, driving the others already living on the edge further out, really seems like business deeply concerned and connected to the region

N Conway overnight? No. A sleepy place that puts time out of doors on its largest mountain out of reach and uncluttered for its local residents? yes.

 

[Black Phantom]

So they'd be better off without any job opportunity and the local schools have failed the community?

VT changed and it is not for the better.

 

[thetrailboss]

but what they really need is training/education. it's not like the majority of the unemployed patronage up here is a bunch of wandering college degree carrying socialites, you know that TB. the white collar, multi seasonal jobs JPR are going to be filled largely by people from outside the NEK, there aren't that many qualified unemployed people kicking stones down main street here, they leave to find work. as a region based on agriculture the work force is far from a woe is me group, they bust their ass, and still live at or just above the level, it doesn't make them destitute or in need of "saving". your right, there can and should be a balance. rushing to build something designed to cater to the elite of the urban center was JPR business model, its working great, but its becoming further and further from simple appreciation many up here enjoy and even choose to live in, without the wonder and satisfaction money can provide

But see the reason that the workforce sucks is that the "anti-development" crowd has driven everyone out, including me!

And I don't agree that JPR is to blame. Ironically a significant part of the "anti-development" crowd are in fact the same folks who would be looking at this new real estate.

Here is an another anecdote: I worked with a firm whose largest client used to be one of the largest private employers in Vermont. About 20 years ago the State began dogging the company over everything, in large part because of a small group of constituents who came to Vermont to get away from any industry and were NIMBY. The company held on...despite lawsuit after lawsuit. Finally about 10 years ago the company moved their entire white collar workforce out of state because they realized that Vermont just did not want them. About 150 high paying good jobs gone. Those folks volunteered in community boards and organizations, had kids in school, and paid lots of Vermont taxes. All gone. Everyone lost.

The guy I worked with who told this story said, "son, Vermont is becoming a state of the the three R's...the rich, the retired, and the retarded. It is expensive because these folks need a lot of services, but there is nobody left to pay for them." I laughed but soon realized that he was right.

So yes, there needs to be more education, but there needs to be an effort to keep what you got rather than chase folks out! Until then, you can pay our share of taxes that we are not paying to Vermont anymore for these programs.

That is not JPR or anyone else's fault besides their own. So now they need jobs and someone to train them pro bono? If that is what they need, they can go out and get it, it shouldnt be provided for them. You honestly believe that Jay is going to turn into North Conway overnight? I seriously doubt it.

Its not that hard to comprehend. More tourism dollars equals more jobs, equals better economic standing for the community. If you guys arent qualified, thats noones fault but your own. Its unreasonable to think they should be hiring director and manager level positions only from NEK residents that arent qualified.

Exactly. It is not JPR's fault. The qualified folks had means and left. What does JPR and other businesses in Vermont do? They have complained to the State that is busy doing other things.....

And one man's "ugly retail development" is another's income and livelihood. Who are we to say that folks who work in retail, live modestly, and are trying to make ends meet are somehow not the same as you or me? I can honestly say that probably 30-40% of my high school class in the NEK did not go on to college. Most of them are living local and need a decent job. They did not have the opportunity to get training. So the development work at JPR and in the area is a great opportunity for them to put food on the table and to get ahead.

 

[thetrailboss]

So they'd be better off without any job opportunity and the local schools have failed the community?

VT changed and it is not for the better.

Never thought I would say this, but Black Phantom is right! :lol:

 

[kingdom-tele]

So they'd be better off without any job opportunity and the local schools have failed the community?

VT changed and it is not for the better.

lots of aspiring youth looking to top out in the laundry and houskeeping room. with pre req's of standing for long periods and lifting 40lbs its kind like working on the family farm, just without the cash under the table or the muck boots. but I don't know the dress code so maybe the boots are still appropriate

TB - I'm not lying when I say I don't a thing about business. But, since I do work in a small business here I can attest to the hoops and mismanagement from the state, I guess knowing your not leaving to satisfy the business perspectives in your life changes how you deal with the VT atmosphere, it doesn't make it less frustrating, but it doesn't change that your still trying to help a community that you live in, which means bending the bottom line.

I am not blaming JPR for doing what they have to do in their business design. its just ironic a region promoted for its environmental beauty (non development) is seeing 10's of thousands of square feet of inside space as its most treasured asset. there was more than one way to skin this cat, their claim to enriching the NEK seems a little far flung, IMO of course