Partial Ski Home Ownership

[gmcunni]

Depending where you buy, there can also be HOA or condo fees in addition. We are considering a season rental this year. Thought we might test the waters.

what resources you using for season rentals? summit county i assume.

 

[dlague]

what resources you using for season rentals? summit county i assume.

That is the thought!

 

[SkiFanE]

One variable that I haven't read yet in this thread, and have both experienced it myself and heard many friends who also made the jump from fractional or full seasonal rental situations to full ownership situations, is that very often you discover that the region that you enjoy enough for winter sliding on snow purposes has just as much outdoor enjoyment options in the summer months, and that's even from people who are beach people and boaters.

The reality that I have experienced in over 9 years now of full ownership is that as a family, even as my kids have gone from pre-school and daycare ages when we first bought to busy middle schoolers now, is that we're using our place more and more in the summer and fall than my wife and I ever thought we would when we made the decision to go from multiple years of seasonal rentals to full ownership

Its the priceless things. I have no idea of cost of ownership - I could figure it all out, but add in ski passes, gas, tolls, equipment and beverages - I guess I don't want to know. Thing about most ski area towns, they don't rise in value like I'm used to in Boston area. So if I invested my $ in Boston I'd have done much better - after 12 years I'd say we gained maybe 10% at SR. We're not on mountain, but I don't think they've done any better. So would I have rather watched my $ grow while sitting home all winter?! Lol, no way. We leave Friday at 6-7pm every weekend from Nov-Apr - so nice to only have to pack a few things and head up to our own place.

But agree skiing same place over and over could get dull. I feel at SR there's enough variety I'm never bored (except for groomer only icy days). So I'd only buy at a big ski area. My kids consider it their home, winter set of friends. And we also think we'll now retire up there - love our home and village and everything about the area. And it's a way to be sure kids and future grandkids come up to visit Skiing is such a family thing now, can't imagine thinking about what our ski place costs in nickels and dimes.

 

[x10003q]

One of the main problems with fractional ownership is when life intrudes on your week/weekend, you have to wait another few weeks to use the unit. There are always family events, kid events, work requirements for you or your spouse or even bad weather that will always pop up on your weekend.

 

[bigbog]

But will the extra cost of not owning and saving the money to invest yield more money than the money purely lost from renting? I haven't run the numbers so I don't know.

I would think it depends on the location in which you own. If you own a place in Stowe, North Conway, or MRV, then the home is a lot more likely to increase substantially rather than a home in say, Kingsfield ME.

Depends on when you invest don't you think? As more and more owners build in those great areas of Stowe, N.Conway and the MRV, the more those areas turn into burbs. You're probably laughing now...but wait a little while, or talk to someone whose nearby woods & views just got cleared for another road of homes.

 

[mlctvt]

My wife and I owned a condo at Mount Snow for 11 years until we sold it earlier this year. For the first few years we rented our unit as a “½ share seasonal rental”. We rented to a nice couple, there were never any issues. They used our place every other week and we had it the alternate weeks. They paid ½ of the cable, phone, heat in addition to the agreed rental amount. It worked well but a negative was it seemed the few big snow storms we received those years were on their weeks so we missed a lot of powder days. Then each week we had to lock our stuff anyway in the owner’s closet and thoroughly clean the place, this sucked!

If we could go back in time we never would have bought the place. Yes, there were many positives to owning but it just did not make economic sense. We should have rented seasonally and kept our money invested our money in the stock market or in other areas. If we had just kept our money in the stock market we would have been so much better off. The carrying cost for our place with no mortgage was approximately $10K per year. This includes condo fees, property taxes, and utility bills but does not include cost of capital tied up in the place or any “special assessments” the condo complex could come up with. We were in a well-managed complex so there weren’t any special assessments. The monthly condo fee included an amount put aside for major maintenance items like new roofs and road paving etc.
Full seasonal rentals were available in our complex for about $9500 and even cheaper if you waited until December when unrented units were discounted.
We did use the place in summer, actually summer became our favorite time of year to be there. But it was difficult to get there in summer months due to so many other obligations.

We are actually looking forward to skiing other areas this winter or in no “areas” at all moving more toward backcountry and cross country! We will rent weekends or extended stays using Airbnb, VRBO or just stay at local inns and hotels. No more being locked to one mountain.

 

[Jully]

That provides a really nice perspective. Association fees are killer. That's why I'd think if you wanted to own but in more economic way, buying a home in a place like N. Conway, MRV, or even Lincoln would be the move if you can find a place without association fees. Condos are nice and there would be no slopeside aspect, but you save on fees and you're not tied to one mountain as well.

The amenities that condo fees goes towards i could care less about usually.

For me, owning I wouldn't consider an investment over the stock market, but if I could get it close to the cost of renting every season I'd like that for the added convenience with the ability to potentially get some money out at a later date.

 

[deadheadskier]

I would think amount of use is really what should drive own vs rent most. Growing up my folks did a half share on Okemo for two seasons then ended up buying a small house off mountain with no fees and reasonable taxes. We ended up using it 40+ weekends a year, a week each summer and every Xmas and Presidents week. They certainly didn't get a good return when they sold it (purchased for $145k, sold for $200k) , but all in probably cheaper than renting by a good margin for the use we got out of it over 15 years.

 

[cdskier]

That provides a really nice perspective. Association fees are killer. That's why I'd think if you wanted to own but in more economic way, buying a home in a place like N. Conway, MRV, or even Lincoln would be the move if you can find a place without association fees. Condos are nice and there would be no slopeside aspect, but you save on fees and you're not tied to one mountain as well.

The amenities that condo fees goes towards i could care less about usually.

For me, owning I wouldn't consider an investment over the stock market, but if I could get it close to the cost of renting every season I'd like that for the added convenience with the ability to potentially get some money out at a later date.

Condo fees vary so much from complex to complex. Mine are relatively cheap, but it is an older complex with no major amenities. Our fees cover the management costs, snow removal, garbage, exterior maintenance, etc. Fees at brand new complexes in my area are insane on the other hand and I don't understand how/why people actually pay them. The asking prices for those units are nuts too (in some cases 3 to 4 times my place for roughly the same size unit...granted it is brand new or practically new but still...). The condo fees at those newer units alone are in some cases 2-3x my mortgage payment or even more. I can't see how people justify that.

Your last comment is really the way I see my place. I'm coming in a bit under the cost of a seasonal rental and have something to show for it along with the convenience of being able to use it any time I want all year long. In terms of ROI, I don't look at it purely from a $ perspective. The enjoyment over the years certainly counts for something that can't be quantified in terms of a $ value.

 

[mlctvt]

The enjoyment over the years certainly counts for something that can't be quantified in terms of a $ value.

I agree with this we definitely enjoyed our 11 years of ownership. When I couldn't ski much I hated winter but when we bought the condo I looked forward to each weekend.

We bought near the high end of the real estate market but I never thought we'd have to sell for less than we paid after many years of ownership . We did, $28K lower and this was after 11 years of ownership and $25K+ of improvements. I don't want to think about the real cost of those 11 years of ski condo ownership when I add this total $53K loss.
Real estate has been our worst investment, even the gain in our home in CT after 25 years of ownership doesn't come close to any of our other financial investments. I know that other areas of the country real estate is appreciating again, not still depreciating. I think this is a mostly New England problem along with a few other rust belt states.

 

[mlctvt]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-calculator.html?_r=0
If you want to do a rent vs purchase comparison here is a good tool

 

[laxski]

I agree with this we definitely enjoyed our 11 years of ownership. When I couldn't ski much I hated winter but when we bought the condo I looked forward to each weekend.

We bought near the high end of the real estate market but I never thought we'd have to sell for less than we paid after many years of ownership . We did, $28K lower and this was after 11 years of ownership and $25K+ of improvements. I don't want to think about the real cost of those 11 years of ski condo ownership when I add this total $53K loss.
Real estate has been our worst investment, even the gain in our home in CT after 25 years of ownership doesn't come close to any of our other financial investments. I know that other areas of the country real estate is appreciating again, not still depreciating. I think this is a mostly New England problem along with a few other rust belt states.[/QUOte We have owned at Mt Snow for 16 years. We bought at a good time as the units are selling about 70k higher than what we paid.mlctvt from the sound of your posts we might own in the same development. I never looked at it as an investment I was just Thrilled to get a place that I could Ski back to after a day on the mountain. The 1st 14 years were 20-25 Ski day seasons with some short term rental of an ave of 2500 to help cover costs.The last 2 we rented it out for 11000 for the season as both our girls were in college. Missed it a lot even though I went out to Utah for a great trip and also did a lot of cross country back country skiing. Only had 9 days in 2 seasons. We are not renting this year and have our season passes so I'm Stoked for a 25 day season. Owning a place for us has worked out well it just makes it easier to just jump in the car and go whenever you want and have all your gear up there.