Attn. Killington, Chris Danforth, Marketing Manager - RE: SPRING SKIING

[Highway Star]

How many fewer skier visits do you anticipate the mountain doing during weekends in April by closing Bear instead of closing the K1?

IMHO they should be running Superstar, K-1, and Skye Peak Express though the 3rd weekend in April. The mountain skis much better with Bear available.

But this year, it makes more sense to keep the SPE open and close the K-1, since dipper and downdraft aren't open.

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early. What do you think the skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open? People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.

It's embarrassing to call themselves the king of spring.

 

[Ski the Moguls]

You're not answering my question. How many more skiers will show up at Killington with Bear open instead of the K1? If there are more skiers, then one would assume there would be more F&B sales. If the skier visits are the same, then one would assume the F&B sales would be the same only consolidated to one service point with less labor needed.

Regarding season pass sales for next season; are you not going to renew at Killington based upon this decision to close Bear April 1st?

As I stated before, I personally would much prefer that they operate Bear over K1. I know for me, it's likely I ski other mountains during April until the end of the month when it's Superstar only as that will likely be the best skiing product left available. Killington will still get my business though. It will just be later in the month.

I thought my answer was clear but I can explain it for you. When I wrote, "Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure." That meant, who the heck knows? You ask an impossible question. People often do that when they are trying to appear more intelligent. No one can answer that because it is impossible to set up both scenarios (i.e. with and without Bear in the same year) and measure the difference.

Personally, I have not yet decided if my family will renew our season passes at Killington next year. And yes, how they handle the end of this lousy ski season will have a large impact on that decision.

 

[deadheadskier]

I'd hope the mountain manager knows. His job is to sell the most tickets he can everyday with the least amount of overhead everyday they are open. Does SPE and SSQ sell more tickets than SSQ and K1 plus offer the mountain the benefit of operating with less services/labor? Based upon their communicated operation plan, they think they have it right.

I agree with you that it's impossible to compare apples to apples. Would be nice for them to say screw it, lets try something different and operate Bear where there's tons of snow and Skye and close down the Peak instead.

 

[oakapple]

I thought my answer was clear but I can explain it for you. When I wrote, "Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure." That meant, who the heck knows? You ask an impossible question.

Well, if no one knows, then their tactical decision to consolidate operations into the K-1 is not conclusively incorrect. Indeed, it is probably right (as annoying as that might be), as they have far better data than we on both costs and skier visits.

 

[threecy]

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early.

Would you care to quantify this?

 

[Highway Star]

I'd hope the mountain manager knows. His job is to sell the most tickets he can everyday with the least amount of overhead everyday they are open.

That's certainly not the strategy to have if you're looking to be a top regional (national?) ski resort.

 

[Ski the Moguls]

Well, if no one knows, then their tactical decision to consolidate operations into the K-1 is not conclusively incorrect. Indeed, it is probably right (as annoying as that might be), as they have far better data than we on both costs and skier visits.

You are doing it again. You are assuming that all companies make good decisions all the time.

Look, the logic is this. Let's say you are making a decent profit selling a pint size container of premium ice cream. But you want to make more money, so you lower the amount of ice cream in the container to be only 14 ounces but still sell it for the same amount of money. Initially, people will not notice, or be stuck in their habit of buying your brand, and your profit will go up. Not because you sold more, but because your costs went down. Eventually however, the consumer will figure out that they are not getting as much as they used to when they buy your product and they will start to look elsewhere. This process does not happen immediately. In the case of a ski season pass holder the purchases are a full year apart and the process can take multiple cycles. But eventually some of your customers will decide they can find a better value elsewhere and move on.

By closing Bear early, Killington is trying to save money by lowering costs, and hoping the consumer will still be satisfied with less product. Of course, I cannot tell you exactly how many consumers will shop elsewhere, or even when they will give up and move on, but I am convinced that it is happening. In the search for a larger, short term profit, Killington is losing customers long term.

And please do not keep saying that it is their business and they know more than we do and so on. Many manager's are measured, and often paid, based on short term performance figures. They may be purposely sacrificing the long term numbers in order to look better in the short run. It may help their pay check, but it hurts consumers, and it hurts Killington in the long run.

 

[oakapple]

You are doing it again. You are assuming that all companies make good decisions all the time.

No, that is what I am arguing at all. What I am arguing is that the right answer depends on data we do not have, but which they DO have.

It is entirely possible that, despite being in possession of better data, they are nevertheless making the wrong decision. I totally get that. But most of the time, people with better data, who are professionals in the very business under discussion, will make the better decision. You will note that I am saying most, not all.

What I long for is actual data, from someone in position to know. What we tend to get here, are conclusory statements from fans, backed mostly by hypotheticals and guesswork, and not even acknowledging the possibility that any other answer might be correct.

It is that kind of lazy argument that I rail against. I am perfectly willing to believe that they could be mistaken; it's just, that I would rather see data, not hopes and guesses.

 

[Highway Star]

Killington - Facebook outrage over BMMC in full swing!

Enjoy!

http://www.facebook.com/killingtonresort



Oh yeah....

KILLINGTON = EPIC FAIL!!!

 

[Highway Star]

Killington Resort


Calling all mogul skiers, registration for the Freestyle Frenzy opens tonight at 8 p.m.

Killington - Freestyle Frenzy
www.killington.com Calling all bumpers and mogul maniacs! Soft bumps and warm weather are on tap as freestylers take to the mogul lanes for some head-to-head competition.




Like · Comment · 19 hours ago ·

• Thomas D'Annunzio, John Wozniak, Hunter Ducheine and 13 others like this.
  
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    Jesse Batthany What's the weather for this weekend looking like over there??? 19 hours ago
    
    
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    Sean Praskievicz did you guys kills the bear mountain mogul challenge? 18 hours ago
    
    
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    Greg Reynolds Bring back BMMC ! 18 hours ago · 3
    
    
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    Diana Soehl ‎@Sean yup BMMC is gone---- 17 hours ago
    
    
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    Killington Resort The Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge has come to an end. It was an awesome event and we had some epic times. However, the last few years of the BMMC became tame due to the "no BYOB" policy. Unfortunately, guests bringing their own alcohol onto property we own and lease led to a substantial number of VT liquor law violations. Enforcement by the VT Department of Liquor Control increased significantly and ultimately "BYOB" created a liability too great for the resort to take on. With the lack of attendance and enthusiasm for the tamer version of the BMMC, the resort decided to develop the Nor'Beaster. This new event will have various venues and activities, (including the Freestyle Frenzy) spread out over a 10-day period that will be a great spring tonic for The Beast and its guests. 17 hours ago
    
    
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    Diana Soehl However you MUST be aware that having all ages concerts in its place will not only continue to bring in alcohol but also lots of recreational drugs for the younguns & prob lots of OTC drugs.. But I guess that's what you think you can control? 17 hours ago
    
    
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    Art Kingston Oh, please... just STOP it already, Killington.
    
    The BMMC did not "come to an end". YOU ended it.
    
    The "no BYOB" enforcement issues over the past few years were YOURS, not Vermont's. This nonsense has already been debunked, repeatedly, over on killingtonzone.com. Stop using the VT DLC as your unwitting patsy.
    
    What happened is exactly what you wanted to happen: with apologies to Grover Norquist, you shrank BMMC down to the size where you could drown it in the bathtub.
    
    This is about a.) closing Bear Mountain earlier in the season and b.) making more scratch off of a lamer, tamer, buy-beers-in-the-bar series of "events". That's all. 17 hours ago · 1
    
    
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    Greg Reynolds Okay BMMC has come to an end but keep Bear "OL" open into May 17 hours ago · 1
    
    
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    Killington Resort ‎Art Kingston - To be clear, the "no BYOB" was our decision not the VT DLC. However, that decision was made due to the number of VT liquor law violations occurring on the property we are responsible for and the possible repercussions for the resort that the BYOB created. At the end of the day, it is a bummer for all but times have changed. 14 hours ago
    
    
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    Kirk Sisson Be that as it may, from a 20 year competitor and two time winner, I can't help thinking that a little effort could have continued the great tradition. Sad. 12 hours ago · 7
    
    
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    Greg Reynolds Throw us a bone and keep OL open May! 11 hours ago
    
    
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    Rich Snedaker it is amazing that killington, known for mogul skiing, has killed it's signature event. The bigger question is why? did you hold the event for the skiers or the party goers? it is fairly clear now that the new management of killington knows nothing about mogul skiing or the mountains own legacy. it is a real shame. the mountain that has produced more world class mogul skiers has turned it's back on one of the greatest events in public skiing. i guess it's better to hold half pipe and park events that no one attends, that seems like a good use of resources. how about the dew tour? let's inconvenience our regular patrons so that the event that no one cares about takes priority. for what tv exposure? really? i think it's time the upper management learn something about corporate culture and skiing in the east. get with the program. 11 hours ago · 5
    
    
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    Kristen Jenkins Unfortunate and disappointing for passionate amateur mogul skiers, the parent company appears to demonstrate its evolved focus for killington. An excerpt from the Powdr corporate website refers to Bear Mountain not to its 'ex-signature' mogul run, but the attention to the parks & snowboarding, as well as a focus on the nightlife: "Snowboarders and skiers from across the country flock to Killington’s Bear Mountain signature terrain parks and 500-foot long, 22-foot vertical Superpipe as well as The Stash, Burton’s all-natural, 80-feature terrain park. Off mountain activities include tubing, dog sledding, cross country skiing, snowshoeing, snowmobiling, ice skating, more than 100 restaurants and the Northeast’s most lively après and nightlife scene..." <http://www.powdr.com/site/who-we-are/killington>. "Forethought and thorough analysis precede each and every decision made at Powdr. We benchmark decisions and actions in the context of our Core Values." <http://www.powdr.com/site/corporate-vision/core-values> Publishing your BMMC continue/kill analysis would be informative and insightful to many of your consumers. 10 hours ago · 2
    
    
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    Art Kingston Oh, for the love of...
    
    PLEASE stop using passive-voice weasel-words in describing the demise of BMMC. "Has come to an end." "Times have changed." The BMMC "became tame".
    
    YOU ended the event. YOU changed the BYOB policy. YOU lamed and tamed it down to nothing. YOU changed the times yourselves.
    
    Four years ago -- when you first began the destruction of the BMMC -- someone at KillingtonZone.com email Terry Goggins, the chief of Education, Licensing, and Enforcement for the VT DLC. Here was the correspondence:
    
    KILLINGTONZONE QUESTION:
    
    For many years one of the rites of spring has been the tailgating festival that occurs during the Bear Mountain Mogul Contest. Many of the ski houses and others set up tents and bring barbecues and their beverages of choice.
    This has occurred with law enforcement officials walking through the festival area. Now the new owners are banning any food or beverages brought to the mountain for this event and will only allow purchased food and beverages. I am not questioning their legal right to do this but they are blaming you the Liquor Control Board of Vermont. Has the regulations changed since last year? Did the new owners request you to enforce these regulations ? This is rather important to many people with interest in the Killington area as this may be just another in a long line of frustrating actions taken by this company which is resulting in hurting the tourism industry at Killington.
    
    VT DLC RESPONSE:
    
    Dear Terry,
    
    In Vermont, it is only legal to sell alcohol in a private dwelling or at a location licensed to sell alcoholic beverages.
    
    Killington assumes large liabilities if someone consuming slopeside hurts themselves or someone else.
    
    William J. Goggins, Chief
    Education, Licensing & Enforcement
    
    KILLINGTONZONE QUESTION:
    
    Thank you for the response although it did not address my specific questions. I will assume that there has been no change in the laws and regulations and that the change in policy is mountain owner related and not something that was coming from a specific directive from your department.
    
    VT DLC RESPONSE:
    
    That's pretty much it in a nutshell Terry.
    
    Bill 56 minutes ago
    
    
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    Art Kingston Another response from the VT DLC back in 2008 to a different question about Killington's attempt to blame the DLC for the no BYOB policy - this one from Tom Curran, an investigator with the VT Dept. of Liquor Control:
    
    "In a nutshell after observing last years event, we as Liquor Control will be looking to see that no giving away of alcohol or selling alcohol without a liquor license occurrs.This law can be found in Title 7 VSA 61 (Prohibited acts / Restrictions). The town of Killington does not have an open container law that prohibits open containers. But Killington Corp. can enforce a policy of not allowing alcohol on it's land, except for where they can sell due to them having a liquor license. A lot of the reasoning in Killington changing some of it's policy's is due to increased liability. The open alcoholic container's in the parking lot is their decision. Again we (DLC) are looking mainly to make sure VSA 61 is adhered to, make sure minors are not drinking, and to assist with public safety issues. "
    
    In other words, folks, nothing changed: no change in state policy, no change in policing, and certainly no increase in liquor law violations. This was nothing but an excuse to do exactly what I wrote earlier: sell overpriced beer and close Bear early. 49 minutes ago
    
    
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    Lisa Swett of course there are open containers in every single parking lot EVERY day of the week, what is the difference???? 42 minutes ago
    
    

huh

 

[2knees]

Good for Bubba, someone has to take them to task on it.

For 20 years i wanted to enter but never had the balls. Even though it was basically out of my league, I'm so glad i did get a chance to run it the last two years.

One thing I dont understand though is why they are saying it became tame and such. It became tame as someone said, because they killed the party. Or in effect, became tame for the people NOT competing. Seemed to me, the last two years the people actually skiing in it had fun. Why would anyone go to watch mostly amateur bump skiers for an entire weekend anyway? What's wrong with holding it for the people who want to ski in it?

S7 is now the premier spring bump contest in the east. Laugh all you want but it blows this mess away. Beer truck, real prizes, growing attendance. Simply more fun.

Oh, and an owner who hangs out all day drinking beers with the crowd and competitors. Someone you can talk to and make suggestions to and is genuinely happy to do this.

 

[kickstand]

The correspondence with the VT DLC is priceless. Good for whoever wrote to them for exposing what Killington was trying to do (not that it wasn't transparent already.... )

 

[2knees]

How many fewer next year season pass sales will there be? How much less F&B sales? Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure. Keep as much open as the snow allows and the skiers will come. Yes, a few other mountains are open into May, but none are closer to the NYC market than Killington.

I thought my answer was clear but I can explain it for you. When I wrote, "Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure." That meant, who the heck knows? You ask an impossible question. People often do that when they are trying to appear more intelligent. No one can answer that because it is impossible to set up both scenarios (i.e. with and without Bear in the same year) and measure the difference.

Personally, I have not yet decided if my family will renew our season passes at Killington next year. And yes, how they handle the end of this lousy ski season will have a large impact on that decision.

You didnt answer any question. It was simple. You said k will lose money because they are closing bear "early". early meaning basically the same time as at least the last 4 or 5 years. I have no idea where you are coming up with this statement. Nothing is changing, especially not this topic which has been discussed ad nauseam the last 5 years. I realize you need to "keep it simple on alpinezone" as you stated elsewhere but it seems to me your argument is based on emotion, personal ideaology and flat out guessing. You should be asking what the upside to keeping bear open would be, not the downside since they've been following this model for a few years now. Are you surprised bear is closing april 1 this year? It's how they have been running this since they got there.

My guess is you will renew as will HS and many others and next year we will be seeing these same threads all over again. That's keeping it simple.

 

[Highway Star]

You didnt answer any question. It was simple. You said k will lose money because they are closing bear "early". early meaning basically the same time as at least the last 4 or 5 years. I have no idea where you are coming up with this statement. Nothing is changing, especially not this topic which has been discussed ad nauseam the last 5 years. I realize you need to "keep it simple on alpinezone" as you stated elsewhere but it seems to me your argument is based on emotion, personal ideaology and flat out guessing. You should be asking what the upside to keeping bear open would be, not the downside since they've been following this model for a few years now. Are you surprised bear is closing april 1 this year? It's how they have been running this since they got there.

My guess is you will renew as will HS and many others and next year we will be seeing these same threads all over again. That's keeping it simple.

Here is your answer, keeping it simple:

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early. What do you think the skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open? People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.

 

[dangah]

We understand that there a lot of folks who are passionate about the BMMC and realize that people will continue to question our motives for ending the event. All we can do is try to clearly explain the situation we were faced with and the decision we made.

Here is our explanation:

"The Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge has come to an end. It was an awesome event and we had some epic times. However, the last few years of the BMMC became tame due to the "no BYOB" policy. Unfortunately, guests bringing their own alcohol onto property we own and lease led to a substantial number of VT liquor law violations (mainly the sharing or selling of alcohol by the public). Enforcement by the VT Department of Liquor Control increased significantly and ultimately "BYOB" created a liability too great for the resort to take on. With the lack of attendance and enthusiasm for the tamer version of the BMMC, the resort decided to develop the Nor'Beaster. This new event will have various venues and activities, (including the Freestyle Frenzy) spread out over a 10-day period that will be a great spring tonic for The Beast and its guests."

As stated in our post and reinforced by the Vermont Department of Liquor Control's quotes in 2008, the decision on BYOB was made due to the increased liability to the resort. This may be the reason why no competing resorts in Vermont promote a large-scale BYOB event.

 

[2knees]

Here is your answer, keeping it simple:

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early. What do you think the skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open? People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.

They've been doing this since they took over. How is this year any different then the last 4? You make it sound as though it's unique to killington to do this. Go to any ski area in april. It's a ghost town with a skeleton crew and minimal lifts. If people are bailing, where are they going? I say that they simply arent skiing in spring like they used to. Do you think if they kept bear open longer they would see a dramatic spike in business? You are usually good with facts so tell me a) how many people have they lost since they started closing bear early. b) where are these people going c) what area doesnt massively reduce its trail count in spring.

I dont think too many casual skiers are trekking from boston and NYC up to Jay just because they keep the entire mountain open as long as possible. Sugarbush closes HALF its terrain march 31. Mt. Ellen shuts down entirely.

 

[threecy]

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early.

Can you quantify this?

 

[skiingsnow]

Here is your answer, keeping it simple:

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early. What do you think the skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open? People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.

Trail count reduced, but generally not down to 40 by the 2nd weekend of April. Here are the past seasons under powdr:


2010/2011 season, the 2nd full weekend of April:
April 9: 93 trails open.
April 10: 94 trails open.

2009/2010 season (bad everywhere, Okemo shutdown before 2nd weekend of April, others limited as well):
April 10: 13 trails open.
April 11: 16 trails open.

2008/2009:
April 11: 65 trails open.
April 12: 65 trails open.

2007/2008:
April 12: 55 trails open. (was 80 trails April 11, but many trails lost due to heavy rain, not Bear closing)
April 13: 55 trails open.

 

[2knees]

Trail count reduced, but generally not down to 40 by the 2nd weekend of April. Here are the past seasons under powdr:


2010/2011 season, the 2nd full weekend of April:
April 9: 93 trails open.
April 10: 94 trails open.

2009/2010 season (bad everywhere, Okemo shutdown before 2nd weekend of April, others limited as well):
April 10: 13 trails open.
April 11: 16 trails open.

2008/2009:
April 11: 65 trails open.
April 12: 65 trails open.

2007/2008:
April 12: 55 trails open. (was 80 trails April 11, but many trails lost due to heavy rain, not Bear closing)
April 13: 55 trails open.

In this case, i would go with HS numbers. 40 trails means real trails, not uppers, mids, lowers and little connectors which are part of the official trail count.

 

[Nick]

I don't know all the history behind this but it sounds like the real people to blame are politicians in VT and state policy that makes it basically a liability for the resort that can't be handled.

I think back to that photo at Mad River Glen where that old guy is skiing naked and the first thing that comes to my mind today is, how fast would that guy get arrested, not look at the quirky dude actually skiing buck naked.

For the times they are a'changin