AZ Challenge 2009: Chris Nyberg, Killington/Pico

[Highway Star]

You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.

The Needles Eye and Northbrook quads were built when ASC was planning to connect Killington to Pico and potentially be able to handle 1.4 million skier visits a year, with a base village taking away basin parking. They would have needed the extra capacity in the NEQ, with the skyeship being stuffed with people coming up from route 4.

 

[thetrailboss]

Sunrise was not part of the land swap deal. It operated for 3 years after the land swap. The swap basicly traded parkers gore, the land southwest of Killington Peak, for basin land to build the base village. Pico had been purchased, and the focus of development changed to the interconnect. Sunrise was originally intended to link over to the solitude/juggernaut/south ridge area, then parkers gore. If we had gotten all that, plus the pico interconnect, Killington would have been around 2000 acres. They should down sunrise because of: lack of traffic vs. operating cost, an aging long triple chair, inferior access vs. the Skyeship, and no future for parkers gore.

AFAIK, they still have rights to operate over there, and the snowmobile tours do (or did for a while). I think they pulled out much of the snowmaking pipe but don't know for sure. The lift towers obviouly have not been removed. Personally, I wish they would install a used double chair over there, and some basic snowmaking on the steeps. It would be fun on busy weekends or very cold/windy days.

Major problem with laying off your full time, experienced staff, is that you don't have enough to be people capable of modifying and relocating lifts, in house. You have to go to a contractor or buy new. Back in the 60's-90's, they had lots of staff and could modify and build lifts as they pleased.

IIRC from reading Lorentz's book, ASC gave up Sunrise in exchange for getting water from the Woodward Reservoir.

 

[mister moose]

as for replacing the snowden quad with an hsq, no one complained when the bush replaced castlerock with another double and mad river replaced the single with another single. same thing with the snowden quad. an hsq there will totally change the character of the tree skiing in that area. those runs would be garbage by 10am. i'd certainly like to them do whatever they can to improve operation of the lift so that it can run at it's rated speed most of the time without all the stopping. but NO to an hsq.

May I have an Amen.

POWDR's best move in the next few years is to improve the services they offer, not upgrade lifts. A longer season, a friendlier and more competent lift staff, better food, some paint and repairs is all this skier needs. I really don't care about a 12 minute lift ride vs a 7 minute lift ride. That goes for anywhere on the mountain.

Many areas have spent themselves into oblivion, and miss the basics.

64 days last year, many of them at Killington, and many of those on Snowdon. The quad runs just fine... whereas I have seen some very faulty loading procedures by the lifties.

 

[Highway Star]

Having only one Snowdon lift will create huge liftlines at that lift during weekends and holidays. One of the beautiful things about the quad is you can normally ski right on, even on a busy day.

They should just leave Snowdon the way it is. They rarely run the triple anyway. No harm no foul. Leave that area alone. I've spent entire days on the Snowdon Quad. So have you. Nothing better when the conditions are right and the goods are good. Leave it alone.

Best option I can think of for snowdon is to replace the quad with a HSQ, perhaps with long chair spacing to limit capacity, or even relocate the NEQ to replace the snowdon quad. Then take the snowdon quad and use it to replace the snowdon triple, except end it at the top of conclusion/GN/Highline intersecton, and move the base uphill about 100 ft. Thus, that would give you good access to the top, while directing the racers and bumpers over to their part of the trail pod. Moving the base of the triple up would provide much better access to the K-1 for people coming from Ramshead, and you could put snowmaking on lower mouse run and use that instaid of bunny buster, for access to the base. Connect the side of mouse trap with lower bunny buster, and you get a nice intermedate bump run.

(this thread would not be complete without a map)

Basicly, I threw a bunch of ideas on here which may or may not be feasable.

- Replacing the quad with a lift that went down to the edge of the vale lot, which would mess up some good trees, but would be a cool natural lift line.
- A trail from the mixing bowl down to the canyon, which would require massive grading on a steep hillside. But is is intended to replace great northern.
- see what else you can spot.

Here's an interconnect map while we're at it:

 

[JerseyJoey]

Sunrise was not part of the land swap deal. It operated for 3 years after the land swap. The swap basicly traded parkers gore, the land southwest of Killington Peak, for basin land to build the base village. Pico had been purchased, and the focus of development changed to the interconnect. Sunrise was originally intended to link over to the solitude/juggernaut/south ridge area, then parkers gore. If we had gotten all that, plus the pico interconnect, Killington would have been around 2000 acres. They should down sunrise because of: lack of traffic vs. operating cost, an aging long triple chair, inferior access vs. the Skyeship, and no future for parkers gore.

AFAIK, they still have rights to operate over there, and the snowmobile tours do (or did for a while). I think they pulled out much of the snowmaking pipe but don't know for sure. The lift towers obviouly have not been removed. Personally, I wish they would install a used double chair over there, and some basic snowmaking on the steeps. It would be fun on busy weekends or very cold/windy days.

Major problem with laying off your full time, experienced staff, is that you don't have enough to be people capable of modifying and relocating lifts, in house. You have to go to a contractor or buy new. Back in the 60's-90's, they had lots of staff and could modify and build lifts as they pleased.

Not true. Tapping the Woodward res and the interconnect were 2 very big parts of that land swap.

Also, can you PLEASE LEARN HOW TO MAKE YOUR PICTURES SMALLER????

 

[Highway Star]

Not true. Tapping the Woodward res and the interconnect were 2 very big parts of that land swap.

Also, can you PLEASE LEARN HOW TO MAKE YOUR PICTURES SMALLER????

Sorry, I believe you are incorrect.

 

[Highway Star]

Here's a rare shot of devil's fiddle with snowmaking (not mine):

 

[Greg]

FYI - I'll leave this thread open for discussion, but I'm heading off on vacation starting tomorrow so I won't have time to distill all this down into 10 questions. I'll get at it when I return.

 

[Highway Star]

Of course I am. Someday I hope to have your knowledge of all things skiing and your intelligence in general. I mean, come on, you are one of the op 30 skiers at Killington, right? Who better to mold myself after. I concede to your greatness.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, please go out and do more research. One of the reasons sunrise was closed was the expansion plans after the land swap, but it was not a direct condition of the land swap. The swap did buy them leverage for village development, the interconnect and the woodward pipe.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/49858-abandones-slopes-killington-3.html#post395986

It was clearly a combination of factors leading to the NEP closure after 98-99.

First of all, for clarification, Parkers Gore is located off the south west of Killington Peak, facing Rutland, visable off the back of Killington Peak. It is more or less directly west of NEP, on the other side of juggarnaut.

Killington aquired the Parkers Gore land in the 80's, but could only get permission to operate ski operations on it until April 1st. They held out for full permission (first nail in the coffin for NEP), which turned into a long fight over bear habitat etc. If was a loooong fight because Parkers Gore would have given them a major southwestern access point to the mountain. The area between the NEP and PG, where Juggarnaut and Solitude are, would have had trails cut with lots of high elevation beginner/cruising terrain, and would have basicly crossed the mountain range. Pres Smith seemingly really wanted to expand Killington like this....hence the SRT chair, NEP, etc.

When Otten bought Killington in the mid 90's, he immediately bought Pico, and didn't want to continue the fight for Parkers Gore. If was much more useful for him to swap that land for land at the K-base, to use for a village (2nd nail for NEP). Combined with other land Killington already had, it turned out to be worth $75M several years later when bought by SP Land/E2M.

In the end, closing NEP was one of the first signs of ASC's failure. The interconnect to Pico was started around '97, with the intention of finishing the next year. However they couldn't fully fund it, and installed the K-1 Gondola at the last minute instaid, in something like 9 weeks. After that, they went into cost cutting mode. The NEP was one of the first things to go, after 98-99....it simply didn't draw enough people to be worthwhile running, especially with the Skyeship providing much more effective access. You probably know the rest of the downward spiral. However, they still retain the NEP land and the right to operate skiing on it.

NEP can be best compared to other low priority trail pods at Killington....the SRT, the Little Pico Triple and Outpost Double. Potentially great, naural, low traffic skiing, but rarely opened, and not as appealing to the "masses", supposedly. Considering those lifts run only on weekends or holidays, and are not particularly crowded, there is not much motivation for Killington to re-expand down to the NEP.

However, one can also argue that these trail pods add considerable depth to the Killington skiing experence. I have seen lines a the Pico Outpost double, when it runs. The SRT does see consistant traffic almost every weekend, especially on nice days with good snow on the south ridge. Having these additional lifts and interesting terrain makes Killington more attractive to ski on the weekends or holidays, and more attractive to the advanced skier. This could potentially lead to more holiday visits, and more premium pass sales. Killington potentially has the locations for at least a half dozen fixed grip lifts and minor trail pods, and these lifts are the cheapest to install and operate. Perhaps some day we will see a return to the NEP.

 

[Highway Star]

Of course I am. Someday I hope to have your knowledge of all things skiing and your intelligence in general. I mean, come on, you are one of the op 30 skiers at Killington, right? Who better to mold myself after. I concede to your greatness.

I've read all this stuff previously......

Page 6:

http://www.nrb.state.vt.us/lup/decisions/2000/1r0835-eb-fco.pdf

2. In 1968, Killington acquired from the State of Vermont 400 acres of land in
Killington Basin and began planning and development in what is now referred to
as the resort’s “400 Acre Planned Unit Development” (“400 Acre PUD”).

3. In 1997, Killington and the State of Vermont participated in a land
exchange in which Killington conveyed approximately 3,000 acres of a
undeveloped land known as Parker’s Gore to the State for the permanent
protection of a bear habitat and a section of the Appalachian and Long Trails. In
exchange, the State conveyed to Killington approximately 1,070 acres of land in
Killington Basin.

4. In the planning process that ensued, Killington identified 408 of the 1,070
acres it obtained in the land exchange as being suitable for development. It has
designated these lands as a second Planned Unit Development (the “408 Acre
PUD”). The 408 Acre PUD adjoins the 400 Acre PUD along the latter’s
northwestern boundary. Both the 400 Acre PUD and the 408 Acre PUD are part
of an overall plan for possible future development of the Killington and Pica
resorts, known as the Killington Resort Village Master Plan (“Plan”). Phase One
of this Plan is the subject of the pending application.*

 

[JerseyJoey]

One of the reasons sunrise was closed was the expansion plans after the land swap, but it was not a direct condition of the land swap. The swap did buy them leverage for village development, the interconnect and the woodward pipe.

How is that different from what I said?

OK, enough. You win. As previously stated, I concede. No need to respond to this.

 

[Highway Star]

IIRC from reading Lorentz's book, ASC gave up Sunrise in exchange for getting water from the Woodward Reservoir.

Not trying to be a jerk or over-argue this, but it comes up all the time and people tend to get things mixed up...

Here's the permits for the pipeline.........somewhat interesting reading. Approved Nov. 1997. Sunrise closed after the '98-'99 season, but not because of the pipeline.

http://www.nrb.state.vt.us/lup/decisions/1998/1r0813-5-eb-fco.pdf
http://www.nrb.state.vt.us/lup/decisions/1998/1r0813-5-eb-lup.pdf

 

[RootDKJ]

Can we get the "free" wings back at happy hour at the bars on the access road?

 

[JerseyJoey]

Can we get the "free" wings back at happy hour at the bars on the access road?

Yoshi still has free wings. General Tsao's wings. Not too bad.

As far as the other 3 ex-free wing establishments go, get to know your bartenders and be nice to them. That's all I'm saying.

 

[icedtea]

Noel's has free wings that are pretty good.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I really don't care about a 12 minute lift ride vs a 7 minute lift ride. .

You are the exact opposite of me..it's 2009 there should be more high speed lifts..especially if a place charges 90 bucks a day

 

[andyzee]

Does this thread have any questions for Killington? :smash:

 

[icedtea]

Question:

Can you move the shark fin from the skye peak lift line?

 

[salida]

You can already use the interconnect in one direction. Just bring your long poles!

 

[icedtea]

Or park a car at Wheelerville.