AZ Challenge 2009: Chris Nyberg, Killington/Pico

[Highway Star]

There was a bunch of other stuff off the top of the old RH double, just wasn't on the trail map, but it was there. A clip here, a snip there, and BAMM, you're back in business.

No there isn't. Don't be misleading people!

 

[icedtea]

There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.

 

[Highway Star]

Point 1 is probably very true without adding more trails.

Point 2 is not true. Swirl and Timerbline/Horn are virtually flat off the top. If widened they would be no more difficult than anything off the current Quad. Families negotiated the summit for year's with little to no snowmaking and much narrower trails.

Only Upper Header has any resemblance of a pitch - Vagabond as well.

Upper Swirl has enough pitch to be intimidating to a beginner. And certainly not enough width.

Horn, and Rams Head Road, are both fairly narrow. I think they would have a tough time getting permission to take out more trees at the top of a relatively under developed ridgeline. However, the interconnect lift on the Ram Head side does just that, so who knows.

 

[Geoff]

- the current Rams Head trail configuration could not realisticly support more lift capacity. Middle Header is already crowded enough on weekends with beginners on it.

- the top of Rams Head, is too steep for beginners, even with signifigant trail widening and grading. Plus they would not enjoy being exposed to the wind at the top.

Rams Head has a ton of acres to add trails. They would be the kind of low-intermediate terrain Killington needs and they wouldn't have any of the nasty trail intersections that plague the rest of the resort. Look at the number of people who get pumped up onto Skye Peak with an 8-seater gondola and three high speed quads. In comparison, Rams Head is very light traffic.

The top part of Rams Head really isn't that steep. The terrain these days is only challenging because of all the brush. You'd have the original high speed quad on any busy day and on any wind day.

Lift corral reconfiguration isn't going to help with the 30 minute lift line. That's what the big ticket customers see at Rams Head and Snowshed when they show up at 10:00. Don't forget that the ski school uses that lift so the main corral only gets to use half the chairs during the peak busy periods. It's bloody awful there. I avoid it during any family period.

 

[Highway Star]

There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.

Lies, all lies. Killington only has groomers, some marginal bumps, and a few tree runs. All the other woods are far too tight to be skiable.

 

[JerseyJoey]

There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.

don't tell me this town ain't got no heart, 'cause I can hear it BEAT OUT LOUD....

 

[Highway Star]

Rams Head has a ton of acres to add trails. They would be the kind of low-intermediate terrain Killington needs and they wouldn't have any of the nasty trail intersections that plague the rest of the resort. Look at the number of people who get pumped up onto Skye Peak with an 8-seater gondola and three high speed quads. In comparison, Rams Head is very light traffic.

The top part of Rams Head really isn't that steep. The terrain these days is only challenging because of all the brush. You'd have the original high speed quad on any busy day and on any wind day.

Lift corral reconfiguration isn't going to help with the 30 minute lift line. That's what the big ticket customers see at Rams Head and Snowshed when they show up at 10:00. Don't forget that the ski school uses that lift so the main corral only gets to use half the chairs during the peak busy periods. It's bloody awful there. I avoid it during any family period.

A little overly dramatic on the lift lines, don't you think...?

The current trails on ramshead full of colisions and near misses when it's crowded. More traffic would make that worse.

The interconnect plan has a new lift north of the current one, from about mid mountain up to the ridge. Plus a lift from the access road to mid mountain. Look at the map (those lifts are not highlighted):

http://www.killingtonzone.com/albums/album184/ICbasictow.jpg

If anything, your new Ram Head lift would be installed instaid of both of those, as a 1,400 ft vert lift, roughly 6,000+ ft long. Could be a 6-pack. It would be a vert nice lift, servicing some great intermediate cruising, and maybe some woods, if they were developed. Much more economical than two lifts. I like it.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.

If Killington only put these goods on the map...more people could take advantage of them..:lol:

 

[jsul]

Has Killington ever considered extenting the spring ski season by adding spring mountain bike trials?

Whistler ski resort uses it's lift access to combine mountain biking and spring skiing. The restaurants,shops and hotels have both skiers and bikers creating revenue. Annual snowfall totals are irrelevant to spring skiing. Killington used to blow snow on Superstar the entire month of January resulting in plenty of snow thru the month of May. But even if snow totals were low the spring pass would allow the avid outdoors person to bike. I just wonder if combining spring skiing with mountain bikers would create a viable revenue stream at a time when the mountain makes no money until the summer season begins. For example if the 2009-10 ski pass were to expire on say April 15th and a spring ski/mountain bike pass offered or simply daily tickets required after the April 15th. I believe this would have a small profit margin for the mountain. Help the restaurants, hotels and shop maintain a year round business and keep loyal customers committed to the once mighty K. I believe there is a market for avid outdoors people who hate to see the season end.

 

[Highway Star]

Has Killington ever considered extenting the spring ski season by adding spring mountain bike trials?

Whistler ski resort uses it's lift access to combine mountain biking and spring skiing. The restaurants,shops and hotels have both skiers and bikers creating revenue. Annual snowfall totals are irrelevant to spring skiing. Killington used to blow snow on Superstar the entire month of January resulting in plenty of snow thru the month of May. But even if snow totals were low the spring pass would allow the avid outdoors person to bike. I just wonder if combining spring skiing with mountain bikers would create a viable revenue stream at a time when the mountain makes no money until the summer season begins. I believe there is a market for avid outdoors people who hate to see the season end.

Yes.....back in the 1990's, the ski season overlapped with biking on both ends. There are some pictures with both bikes and people on skis on the old Killington Double. In this spring, I think they started running the Skyeship for biking for a while, Superstar was still open for skiing. This created year-round activity in the town.

The current strategy shuts the town down for 2 months in the spring and about a month in the fall. They just completely lose momentum with visits. Most of the businesses shut down too.

If they are planning to build this "Ski Village", they have to come up with a better strategy to sustain skier visits in the off season. Killington has lost it's killer-app* of the 8-month ski season that kept people intersted nearly year round. The biking offering is not competitive with Mt. Snow, Highland (near Boston), or Diablo (mt. creek, NJ). They pulled out the waterslide, which wasn't much of an attraction anyway.

(*A killer application (commonly shortened to killer app), in the jargon of computer programmers and video gamers, has been used to refer to any computer program that is so necessary or desirable that it proves the core value of some larger technology, such as computer hardware like a gaming console, operating system or other software. A killer app can substantially increase sales of the platform that it runs on.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_application

Question: what can Killington offer during the summer that is worth driving 3-5 hours for, that people can't do cheaper and better somewhere closer? It's not shopping, it's certainly not golfing, and the biking is ok, but not all that. Personally, I think they need summertime high elevation skiing on the peak using an IDE warm weather snowmaking system...but that's a long shot. Maybe they just need a proper critical mass of activities, attractions, and events......?

Pics from 10/5/96, not mine, note the bike.
BTW, they closed on JUNE 22 that season.

Source:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13435&hilit=bike+ski+double

 

[deadheadskier]

HWS is correct. They did overlap.

I recall skiing Superstar in the morning then MTBing in the afternoon on a couple of occasions.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Yes.....back in the 1990's, the ski season overlapped with biking on both ends. There are some pictures with both bikes and people on skis on the old Killington Double. In this spring, I think they started running the Skyeship for biking for a while, Superstar was still open for skiing. This created year-round activity in the town.

The current strategy shuts the town down for 2 months in the spring and about a month in the fall. They just completely lose momentum with visits. Most of the businesses shut down too.

If they are planning to build this "Ski Village", they have to come up with a better strategy to sustain skier visits in the off season. Killington has lost it's killer-app* of the 8-month ski season that kept people intersted nearly year round. The biking offering is not competitive with Mt. Snow, Highland (near Boston), or Diablo (mt. creek, NJ). They pulled out the waterslide, which wasn't much of an attraction anyway.

(*A killer application (commonly shortened to killer app), in the jargon of computer programmers and video gamers, has been used to refer to any computer program that is so necessary or desirable that it proves the core value of some larger technology, such as computer hardware like a gaming console, operating system or other software. A killer app can substantially increase sales of the platform that it runs on.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_application

Question: what can Killington offer during the summer that is worth driving 3-5 hours for, that people can't do cheaper and better somewhere closer? It's not shopping, it's certainly not golfing, and the biking is ok, but not all that. Personally, I think they need summertime high elevation skiing on the peak using an IDE warm weather snowmaking system...but that's a long shot. Maybe they just need a proper critical mass of activities, attractions, and events......?

Pics from 10/5/96, not mine, note the bike.
BTW, they closed on JUNE 22 that season.

Source:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13435&hilit=bike+ski+double

Nice stoke!!!! I remember where I was and also what I had for dinner that day,..I was a senior in high school and jealous of the reports I read from that day on the internet..and I had a Bacon Steezeburger that day with my Aunt, Mom and Dad at Rookies..

 

[Newpylong]

HWS, it's tough to tell what were proposed lifts and which are just lines on that map. Am I seeing that there really were 3 lifts proposed between Snowdon and Ram's Head? Are they out of their mind?

It seems like that plan is in typical K-Mart fashion, put in a bunch of lifts and a clusterf*ck of trails.

Can you repost that with current lifts in red and proposed in green instead?

If the interconnect ever goes through does it have to be this plan because it is already permitted? Looks terrible...

 

[jaytrem]

Anybody else miss the triathlon? Ski/mt bike/trail run, what could be better? In the "glory days" it would sell out every year long before the event. I typically did well in the skiing, pretty good in the bike, then horrible in the run. One year I crashed the skiing, got a bunch of mud in my eye on the bike, and puked on the run. Great time though!!! Might as well make an offical question out of this.

Any chance of bringing back the triathlon? Even if it was a few week earlier.

 

[Highway Star]

HWS, it's tough to tell what were proposed lifts and which are just lines on that map. Am I seeing that there really were 3 lifts proposed between Snowdon and Ram's Head? Are they out of their mind?

It seems like that plan is in typical K-Mart fashion, put in a bunch of lifts and a clusterf*ck of trails.

Can you repost that with current lifts in red and proposed in green instead?

If the interconnect ever goes through does it have to be this plan because it is already permitted? Looks terrible...

Oh yeah.....the original map pdf shows the snowdon quad as removed, replaced by those lifts you noticed. Wacky. It also includes a new south ridge lift, a lift around lower great eastern, and a lift replacing the snowshed doubles. And the Needles Eye quad is drawn wrong.

On the interconnect, as far as I know, they are permitted (act 250) for 4 lifts and roughly 110 acres of trails, as shown on that map I posted. 3 between the ramshead quad and little pico, and one on the south side of pico. The permit is 1R0813-2 if you feel like requesting a copy - it's not online.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/site/cfm/act250/detail.cfm?ID=19146

EXTEND CONSTUCTION DEADLINE FROM 8/14/01 TO 8/14/06 FOR PICO INTERCONNECT PROJECT, CONSISTS OF 4 CHAIRLIFTS & 110 ACRES OF SKI TRAIL W/SNOWMAKING

I just want to see them build the interconnect already.........meh.

 

[BigK]

Why is Killington's food so.....?

 

[deadheadskier]

Why is Killington's food so.....?

I'll field this one having worked in management of F&B at ski resorts for a few years. High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of a few things:

1. High fixed cost of management. Believe it or not, despite how simple the food is in most cafeterias and casual dining bars at ski resorts, it takes a fairly skilled management staff to pull off. You have ZERO time to train staff because the bean counters won't let you start people working and training until essentially right before Christmas week. It's 0-60 in a weekend before the busiest week of the year with maybe 25% returning staff at most areas. So, that management staff needs to be talented enough to train quickly and willing to work 75-100 hours a week during peak season to keep the machine moving. To get that type of person, you need to pay them well and keep them employed year round.

2. Food Cost is based on the year and revenue hides mistakes. You've essentially got 10 weeks to pad your numbers to look good for the year because aside from event weekends in the summer, you aren't doing squat for revenue, which drives food costs up.

3. Group Packages. F&B gets screwed on these. Group Sales books a group at $80 a day. The package includes lunch. F&B is kicked $10 for what would normally cost $12 ala carte. So, to make that $2 back, they charge $14 to the individual ala carte customers.

4. Employee discounts. Each place I worked the discount in the cafeteria's was around 50% and around 20% in full service outlets. Killington probably feeds 1000 employees a day each weekend on that discount.

5. Theft. There is no place like ski and beach communities where more free beers and food flies over the bar. In cities it happens, but no where near the same degree. The seasonal line level staff member doesn't care if he's ruining a resorts profit. If he gets fired, he'll go work somewhere else in town that's desperate for help and move to a different resort all together the following season.

Despite those ridiculously high prices, F&B is routinely the least profitable revenue center at resorts and in many situations loses money as a loss leader amenity for guests.


So, don't expect food prices to change any time soon and there's little point in bitching about em. It sucks, but the beauty of it has been the birth of great tailgating in the parking lot when the day is done.

 

[mister moose]

I'll field this one having worked in management of F&B at ski resorts for a few years. High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of a few things:

<snip>

I'm not buying it, and let me shorten it for you.

On the financial reports I read, F&B is a profit center, and a healthy one.
High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of one thing: Captive audience.


*edit:
Ok, that was too short. Yes, costs are higher for seasonal businesses in outlying areas. (which is what #2 is about) #3 and #4 are how you cut the revenue pie. Arbitrary sometimes, and makes one department look good at the expense of another. It's still revenue.

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm not buying it, and let me shorten it for you.

On the financial reports I read, F&B is a profit center, and a healthy one.
High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of one thing: Captive audience.

Worked for Stowe, Intrawest and a smaller family owned area in Maryland. I still have numerous former friends and co-workers in the ski business. F&B is rarely a healthy profit center, especially in comparison to ski area ops and/or lodging.

Maybe it's healthy at Killington, but as a general rule, you are wrong.

This is true of not just ski resorts, but of beach resorts, arenas, etc. 14 years of working in F&B operations and 2 years supplying these entities as my experience. If 80% of restaurants close within 5 years in year round communities, what makes you think it's easier to make a buck in a seasonal business?

As for Arenas, right now, the Boston Garden / Fleet Center whatever you want to call it is part of 20% of F&B operations in the entirety of the Delaware North Companies that is turning a profit.

It's easy to say captive audience, but that's far from correct.

 

[mondeo]

I'm not buying it, and let me shorten it for you.

On the financial reports I read, F&B is a profit center, and a healthy one.
High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of one thing: Captive audience.

I'll combine the two, and make it even shorter:

Supply and demand.

I don't doubt the factors that DHS mention; the expenses associated with F&B dictate fairly low supply. Captive audience means demand is high. Low supply & high demand = high prices.