Bretton Woods Closed??!!

[thetrailboss]

Yep, according to SnoCountry and the resort's own report, they are done. :blink: What happened to their late season skiing? Anyone know the real dirt here?

 

[drjeff]

The obvious answer would be that the new owners have a different view of late season operations than the old owners had

 

[thetrailboss]

The obvious answer would be that the new owners have a different view of late season operations than the old owners had

That's what I was thinking....the closure is just much, much earlier than the last few years and they are letting other places beat them out.

 

[Vortex]

Been saying Bode weekend was it for quite a while. Use to get alot of good press with the early and late season effots.

 

[jerryg]

I go along with it's the new business model. I didn't renew my pass there for the very reason that they closed up shop with a beautiful base still to be had. The main reason I used to purchase a pass there was that I could count on them being open to the bitter end. The place was still 80% open. I guess the days of going to the end of April or even into May are over. I am tired of maximizing the share holders value. Mid December to end of March is going to become the norm for a ski season I guess. That is a way of controlling cost. It is like keeping the same price for a candy bar but shrinking it in size.
Their web site did state that they are going to have "new" alpine offerings this summer but gave no details. I liked the "old" alpine offering just fine. :sad:

Whereas your frustration is understood, the business model would be set to reduce late season operating losses. Running 2 HSQs with a couple handfuls of skiers/riders is operating at a loss. If tehy operate at a loss, yes, you get to ski/ride later, but the aforementioned "'new' alpine offerings" can't be afforded.

 

[AdironRider]

I dont get why people complain when a mtn closes half way through April. Look, your a passholder, which is great, but in doing so your looking for the pass that gives you the most skiing for the lowest cost right? So your still trying to save money yourself no? How is it suddenly a bad thing if the mtn does the same thing, on a much grander scale mind you?

You might have a gripe if you drove up from Boston and wanted to buy a day ticket, but your complaining cause you cant go out and ski one more day on your couple hundred dollar season pass? Puhhhhleasseeee. Bretton Woods consistently puts down good snow, has high speed quads everywhere, and still made it longer than pretty much everyone but Northern VT, its not that bad so stop complaining.

It must be that time of year.... Winter will come again next season, no reason to bitch about ski hills closing down.

 

[JPTracker]

There is a lot more involved in staying open late and opening early then just the fact that they operate at a loss.

Season Pass sales - Season pass holders may use the length of the season when buying the pass.

Staff - They may not have enough staff on hand to stay open.

Real Estate - When people purchase homes on a mountain the length of the season is factored in. This will not have a short term effect on the mountain but can effect them long term in real estate sales and property values of existing condos.

So even though a resort is losing money on a day to day basis by staying open late they still may gain in the long term for it.

 

[AdironRider]

Trust me fellas, this has little to do with season pass holder retention or how much base the trails have, but rather the cost to employ everyone necessary to have a mtn up and running, even at less than 100%. Base levels are a moot point, theyre sunk costs by the time the end of the season rolls around. Doesnt matter to them if they have the base, its whether its profitable to keep people skiing the base thats there. Most season pass holders are not going to let their entire decision be swayed by 1 late late season weekend closing, and the mtns are going to see little money from them when they do show up. That being said, how many people do you think it takes for a mtn like BW to open? You need food services, guest services, grooming, ski patrol, lifties, parking, etc. No way theyre going to make up the costs to employ all those individuals from the 100-200 passholders that show up, plus a few random day ticket sales.

 

[bobbutts]

Bretton Woods was a dumb place to keep open late anyway being flat and low elevation.. I believe that at least a few areas should go until the bitter end. As we are seeing now with the season extensions, some resorts still do find a compelling reason to stay open thanks to good snow conditions.

I think you guys that are saying this is an open and shut case and not worth mentioning are missing the point. In a region where entire seasons can go by without conditions like we've had this April it is upsetting to see resorts closing. Yes it is reality that in many cases profit eclipses all.

It is business to throw away a perfectly good product if it is unprofitable. In a sport of passion in a passionate place like New England, I believe it would be wise to at least give lip service to that passion as a model for better business. I've already voted with my wallet by purchasing a Sunapee/Okemo/Stratton pass for next year and not renewing the Bold and Beautiful.

No way theyre going to make up the costs to employ all those individuals from the 100-200 passholders that show up, plus a few random day ticket sales.

Winter will come again next season, no reason to bitch about ski hills closing down.

 

[darent]

hats off to bw for their early season effort, skied there two days in december and had great conditions.they must have spent a fortune on snowmaking this season, so can't gripe to much on the early closing.

 

[Vortex]

There is a lot more involved in staying open late and opening early then just the fact that they operate at a loss.

Season Pass sales - Season pass holders may use the length of the season when buying the pass.

Staff - They may not have enough staff on hand to stay open.

Real Estate - When people purchase homes on a mountain the length of the season is factored in. This will not have a short term effect on the mountain but can effect them long term in real estate sales and property values of existing condos.

So even though a resort is losing money on a day to day basis by staying open late they still may gain in the long term for it.

Season passes and real estate. You get it. I bought property in the mountains and length of season was a definte issue. It continues to be so.

 

[jerryg]

Bretton Woods consistently puts down good snow, has high speed quads everywhere, and still made it longer than pretty much everyone but Northern VT, QUOTE]

Hmmm. Sunday River and Sugarloaf are both open and not in Northern Vermont. Sugarloaf is 100% open and SR would be 98% open if not for the closure of pods to save money.

These two mountain may have the best cover of any resorts in the east right now and they are in Maine.

Oh, and Saddleback, which is in Maine, and closed yesterday as they don't have the skier traffic, was 100%.

Just making a point.

 

[thetrailboss]

Trust me fellas, this has little to do with season pass holder retention or how much base the trails have, but rather the cost to employ everyone necessary to have a mtn up and running, even at less than 100%. Base levels are a moot point, theyre sunk costs by the time the end of the season rolls around. Doesnt matter to them if they have the base, its whether its profitable to keep people skiing the base thats there. Most season pass holders are not going to let their entire decision be swayed by 1 late late season weekend closing, and the mtns are going to see little money from them when they do show up. That being said, how many people do you think it takes for a mtn like BW to open? You need food services, guest services, grooming, ski patrol, lifties, parking, etc. No way theyre going to make up the costs to employ all those individuals from the 100-200 passholders that show up, plus a few random day ticket sales.

That's true and I see your point......makes sense. But there are places that make it work, and ways to make it happen.

How do you explain Killington's reign as the "King of Spring" for so long? They made it work. Why? In part because the revenue for that company and the business was skiing. They structured things to achieve that goal. Many resorts now are real estate companies that have ski slopes...or something like that. :wink:

But there is another reason why extended seasons were so important for K-mart: because it was a PR thing and it meant that people would book vaca's at K-mart for midwinter ("geesh honey, if they can ski in October, they CERTAINLY will have skiing in January") It worked.

Now to my point....and that is resorts can certainly take the Southwest/Jet Blue approach to late season skiing: we don't need full food service, or the ski shop, or someone to serve coffee. Why not focus on spinning lifts, selling tickets, and having scaled back services? Now there is a fine line...and some places cross it (closing lifts and terrain). However, it is a balance because many of these services DO make money...but my point is operate on weekends and have minimal staff.

Pre and Late Season skiing is why many of us do buy passes. And yes, they do make money off of us. This time of year many passholders end their season by purchasing that season pass for next year. Exhibit 1: Bob R buying his family passes at Loon in April 2006 for the 2006-2007 season. That's revenue that is reported for this "slow" income period....

 

[snoseek]

i was at bw on closing day. looked to me like a pretty long wait to purchase a ticket. for the last 5 years they have pushed snow around to make 1 ribbon last into may, yesterday we were skiing off trail and it was real deep. i now understand the new owners commitment to real skiers and i'm not real impressed. thank god for my a41 pass.


btw bretton woods does hold snow pretty good (nw exposure) and the base is not low elevation. the place is real flat however, and the trail they open and close on kind of blows.

 

[AdironRider]

That's true and I see your point......makes sense. But there are places that make it work, and ways to make it happen.

How do you explain Killington's reign as the "King of Spring" for so long? They made it work. Why? In part because the revenue for that company and the business was skiing. They structured things to achieve that goal. Many resorts now are real estate companies that have ski slopes...or something like that. :wink:

But there is another reason why extended seasons were so important for K-mart: because it was a PR thing and it meant that people would book vaca's at K-mart for midwinter ("geesh honey, if they can ski in October, they CERTAINLY will have skiing in January") It worked.

Now to my point....and that is resorts can certainly take the Southwest/Jet Blue approach to late season skiing: we don't need full food service, or the ski shop, or someone to serve coffee. Why not focus on spinning lifts, selling tickets, and having scaled back services? Now there is a fine line...and some places cross it (closing lifts and terrain). However, it is a balance because many of these services DO make money...but my point is operate on weekends and have minimal staff.

Pre and Late Season skiing is why many of us do buy passes. And yes, they do make money off of us. This time of year many passholders end their season by purchasing that season pass for next year. Exhibit 1: Bob R buying his family passes at Loon in April 2006 for the 2006-2007 season. That's revenue that is reported for this "slow" income period....

I agree with all of your points, but I have one contention. Killington had a reputation and was successful in its periods of long season operation primarily because they were THE mtn for long season operation. Nowhere else was even close. Nowadays, I think its a bit different. Jay, the Loaf, Stowe, Sugarbush, the River, Whiteface, Gore, etc are all trying to push the limit on how late they can push the season. That spreads an already thin amount of die hard skiers out over a bunch of different mtns and geographic areas, in turn making it that much tougher to cover costs. Whereas before we all just piled in the car and headed to Killington. Theres a limited market, I think its unfair to expect every area to try and stay open till the last flake melts. More money saved now, means more for improvements and the majority of next season, Im willing to sacrifice a day of spring skiing, for a bit more snowmaking come Nov early December when we really need it.

 

[darent]

I see bobs point about owning realestate and bw closing early,although he does have the advantage of living on mountain and no driving 4 hours to ski,I would just hike for turns, have the mountain to myself and ski till all the snow melted

 

[Breeze]

Why would BW close when they have so much cover right now?

Multiple choice test follows

A.

Because they DIDN'T have this cover in Early April and couldn't market a late season to fill lodging and F&B properties, which is an important part of the business model.

B.

A huge portion of the annual Mountain Ops budget was spent in early season snowmaking and late season discounts don't stem outgoing red ink..

C.

The business model is skewed to NEW ownership expectations, to the possible detriment of some previously understood "client" expectations.

D.
New Ownership takes the keys and also takes on Payroll, AKA Human Relations. New Broom sweeps out the old and brings in the new, part of transition/change

E.

New ownership has no clue about loyalty or history and is in transition mode.

F

All of the above

Breeze

 

[darent]

breeze hit the nail on the head,several times, transition taking place,new owners taking abreath to evaluate, loyal consumers holding their breath to see what will transpire

 

[Breeze]

pssst, shame on me

the same thing is happening at Attitash and it is not pretty there, either.

Breeze

 

[thetrailboss]

I agree with all of your points, but I have one contention. Killington had a reputation and was successful in its periods of long season operation primarily because they were THE mtn for long season operation. Nowhere else was even close. Nowadays, I think its a bit different. Jay, the Loaf, Stowe, Sugarbush, the River, Whiteface, Gore, etc are all trying to push the limit on how late they can push the season. That spreads an already thin amount of die hard skiers out over a bunch of different mtns and geographic areas, in turn making it that much tougher to cover costs. Whereas before we all just piled in the car and headed to Killington. Theres a limited market, I think its unfair to expect every area to try and stay open till the last flake melts. More money saved now, means more for improvements and the majority of next season, Im willing to sacrifice a day of spring skiing, for a bit more snowmaking come Nov early December when we really need it.

Very, very true. That is indeed what is happening now.