Cannon lift out to bid

[thetrailboss]

http://www.cannonmt.com/intrailmap.html
That's interesting. Are the Mitt trails shown the original ones?
Looks pretty much the same
http://www.nelsap.org/nh/mittersill.html

That's pretty much what Mittersill looked like and still does today. The lift in question is the one on the far left (or east) next to "A."

 

[thetrailboss]

Judging by the amount of interest with Cannon and Mittersill, the question remains, when are we going to do an AZ Mittersill Day?

 

[EPB]

Without looking at my records or any recent listings, I can think of half a dozen doubles that could be attained today.

I might be mistaken, but you did say you are no longer in the industry, correct? If that's the case, there should be no reason why you cannot disclose said half dozen doubles. You did also say that western mountains would be much more expensive to purchase from because of shipping issues, so I presume these lifts would be from the east coast. Would the available lifts be so short that Cannon would need to purchase two for Mittersill? The consensus here seems to be that there are no long doubles lying around the northeast that are for sale, unless of course you have information that we don't. I, for one, am skeptical that a good replacement lift built in the past 25 years exists.

We do, but you apparently have an arbitrary system of deciding what's a major resort and what's not.

You don't think Gunstock and Wachusett draw from Cannon's market? Yet you think Saddleback is going after the "metro Boston market?" Where do Gunstock and Wachusett draw from? New York City?

With all due respect, you appear to be having an incredibly difficult time understanding what seems to be a fairly obvious distinction. There are ski areas close to Boston where people go for day trips, or when they don't want to travel particularly far. Gunstock, WaWa, Jimminy, etc fall into that category. The bedding situation is somewhat irrelevant because many people that go to ski areas closer to Boston sacrifice convenience for major New England ski area terrain. Whether they stay overnight is aside from the point. When people venture into northern ME, NH and VT, their expectations of snow, terrain and lifts change.

Absolutely. That's a critical aspect in buying used - knowing how well the lift was maintained. One of the reasons Loon's triple chairlift was coveted was that Loon had a good reputation for maintaining their equipment.

So when you referenced those phantom half dozen lifts earlier, you also know that they are in acceptable condition?


I'll agree with you on this much:
A lift build in the past, 25 years by CTEC, and Poma could probably pass for "like new" in most people's minds. Lifts built in the last 18 to 20 years by Doppelmayr would fall under the same category (the 80's dopps could easily be recognized as old and shitty). Lifts built by any other manufacturer wouldn't fly. Now, if Cannon could have turned up a lift of acceptable length that fit the above criteria between last spring and now, that could have been a viable alternative.

Without any evidence that such lifts were available, there really isn't much more to say. The used lift market likely did not match up with Cannon's needs, and they might have paid a bit too much on a new install. Nobody here has given a solid estimate for how much money the state leases Sunapee for, and nobody here knows exactly what type of profit (or loss) Cannon has been generating the past few years. This lift could fit nicely into their budget and lead to a healthy increase in cash flows that a used lift couldn't offer. I presume you don't have much experience with the degree to which installing new lifts increases cash flows, but maybe you do; I haven't seen you mention it thus far.

 

[AdironRider]

Check out the legs on this thread.

I will say Tin put up a better fight than I did. Im just to lazy to split up quotes fifteen times.

I like my blatant armchair quarterback style. And pissing off irrational "insiders" like threecy.

 

[deadheadskier]

Fan Guns at Cannon would be a bad idea. Too much wind for them.

I'm sure they could be useful on certain trails and high traffic areas.

 

[threecy]

Fan Guns at Cannon would be a bad idea. Too much wind for them.

That statement is nonsensical. If it's too windy for snowmaking, it's too windy for snowmaking, air/water or fan gun.

I might be mistaken, but you did say you are no longer in the industry, correct? If that's the case, there should be no reason why you cannot disclose said half dozen doubles.

I am still a consultant and I am bound to NDAs.

With all due respect, you appear to be having an incredibly difficult time understanding what seems to be a fairly obvious distinction. There are ski areas close to Boston where people go for day trips, or when they don't want to travel particularly far. Gunstock, WaWa, Jimminy, etc fall into that category. The bedding situation is somewhat irrelevant because many people that go to ski areas closer to Boston sacrifice convenience for major New England ski area terrain. Whether they stay overnight is aside from the point. When people venture into northern ME, NH and VT, their expectations of snow, terrain and lifts change.

Again, Gunstock and Jiminy are absolutely destination resorts. Again, Jiminy has a very large slopeside complex, which drives the western Berkshire economy in winter. Gunstock fills a large number of beds in the southern Lakes Region.

Throwing out a question that probably can't be answered here - I wonder what % of skier visits to Cannon, Gunstock, and Jiminy are overnighters vs. daytrippers. I bet the % is rather similar.


And again, I'd venture a guess that 99% of skiers can't tell you the make or age of the chairlift they're riding. So long as it works, looks good, and the chairs are comfortable, no one would notice a difference between a $2.6M and a $0.6M double chairlift at Mittersill. Do you really think a non-Cannon skier would say, "I'm only going to Cannon if they install a 2010 Doppelmayr/CTEC double chair at Mittersill?"

So when you referenced those phantom half dozen lifts earlier, you also know that they are in acceptable condition?

Yes. There are plenty more double chairlifts in New England if condition isn't an issue.

I'll agree with you on this much:
A lift build in the past, 25 years by CTEC, and Poma could probably pass for "like new" in most people's minds. Lifts built in the last 18 to 20 years by Doppelmayr would fall under the same category. Lifts built by any other manufacturer wouldn't fly.

Doppelmayr and CTEC have been the same company for the last decade. Many other brands were actually absorbed by Doppelmayr/CTEC/Garventa and share similarities. For instance, Hall/Von Roll eventually were rolled into CTEC. Borvig was rolled into Partek, which was rolled into Doppelmayr/CTEC.




Without any evidence that such lifts were available, there really isn't much more to say. The used lift market likely did not match up with Cannon's needs, and they might have paid a bit too much on a new install. Nobody here has given a solid estimate for how much money the state leases Sunapee for,

and nobody here knows exactly what type of profit (or loss) Cannon has been generating the past few years.

I don't believe this season's financials have been released, but Cannon made a profit in 2007-2008 and 2008-2009. This is not necessarily comparable to a private sector ski area, though, as Cannon doesn't have to worry about land ownership or debt in the same fashion.

This lift could fit nicely into their budget and lead to a healthy increase in cash flows that a used lift couldn't offer. I presume you don't have much experience with the degree to which installing new lifts increases cash flows, but maybe you do; I haven't seen you mention it thus far.

A lift alone only increases expenses. Assuming they operate this 7 days a week, Christmas through President's Week, Cannon will need to pay about 2,000 lift operator hours (assuming they can get away with 3 ops), daily maintenance support, electric, etc. Those are a given and would not vary whether the lift was brand new or refurbished. Clearly, Cannon already has an issue with the facility being too big to operate, in that they've scaled back midweek operations in recent years. This only adds to the issue.

The revenue impact will be tough to measure.

Again, I don't think there are many, if any, skiers who would only come to Cannon if the Mittersill double chairlift were brand new vs. refurbished new. Both would have a modern drive, fresh paint, and perhaps the same comfortable chairs (1960s vintage double chairs don't cut it for a lot of people now). Very few would know the difference, and maybe a few dozen skiers who know would even care.

Offhand, I think cashflow would be derived from a) folks who want to ski Mittersill-like-terrain served by a lift b) intermediates who previously thought Cannon lacked enough intermediate terrain c) folks who otherwise avoid Cannon in windy conditions.

 

[bobbutts]

With all due respect, you appear to be having an incredibly difficult time understanding what seems to be a fairly obvious distinction. There are ski areas close to Boston where people go for day trips, or when they don't want to travel particularly far. Gunstock, WaWa, Jimminy, etc fall into that category. The bedding situation is somewhat irrelevant because many people that go to ski areas closer to Boston sacrifice convenience for major New England ski area terrain. Whether they stay overnight is aside from the point. When people venture into northern ME, NH and VT, their expectations of snow, terrain and lifts change..

Distance in miles and travel time from "Boston" according to Google Maps

Jiminy - 145 2:54
Cannon - 141 2:23
Gunstock - 103 1:59
Wachusett - 66 1:20

You fail at the distance/time argument, which even if you were right about didn't make much sense anyway.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

blah blah

So we've reached the point where we are just talking past each other, which I think it why the Internets were invented. Regardless, here's my fundamental objection to your original post on this subject, and I think this is something we can discuss in a rational manner w/o resorting to semantics:

You portrayed the decision to purchase a new chair as being irresponsible and one that was likely a function of Cannon being State owned instead of privately owned. The problem with this argument is that there are literally hundreds of examples of private ski areas purchasing new lifts when a used lift, or even a less expensive new lift (e.g. replacement Single at MRG), were available options. Prima facie, that renders your central point moot. The reality is that each chairlift installation is bespoke. Every chair serves different terrain, for different skiers, in a different climate, under different mgmt, and at resorts with different market positioning and needs. It is absolutely, fundamentally untrue to say that a privately-owned resort would have done this or that - you have no freaking idea what a private resort would have done. For each example fitting your heuristic, I can point to just as many going to other way. By definition, that means you can't portray your POV as being some sort of objective reality. Instead, you are resorting to intellectual dishonesty by calling WaWa a major/1st class resort or insisting that Thanksgiving to Easter on natural snow is the proper standard for ability to hold snow in New England.

So you're disappointed that it's costing more money than you'd like as a NH taxpayer. That's totally fair - I don't live there. But don't come in here and pretend that you've got insider knowledge rendering your opinion as fact. That's just bullshit.

 

[EPB]

Distance in miles and travel time from "Boston" according to Google Maps

Jiminy - 145 2:54
Cannon - 141 2:23
Gunstock - 103 1:59
Wachusett - 66 1:20

You fail at the distance/time argument, which even if you were right about didn't make much sense anyway.

I've never been to Jiminy, so I shouldn't have mentioned them in there without doing research. That said, you would be out of your mind to not concede to my point on Wachussett, especially considering how much easier it would be to get there from the Metro West and southeast Mass. Everybody knows that place is an absolute zoo becasue its the closest 1k vert area around. Also- the reused chairlift that they relocated is quite short from what I can gather.

Gunstock is better suited to service young families and beginners though upper intermediates. Totally different crowd. Again, probably one of the closest quazi resort areas to Boston, so there is most certainly a convenience factor (ie the trade-off of time/convenience/price (potentially) v. resort amenities, ski lifts, terrain, and snow certainly apply). Again, they re-used THEIR OWN summit triple to replace a beginner/low intermediate pod's double that was roughly 40+ years old.

Those installs are weak for comparison to Cannon on a good day at best.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Distance in miles and travel time from "Boston" according to Google Maps

Jiminy - 145 2:54
Cannon - 141 2:23
Gunstock - 103 1:59
Wachusett - 66 1:20

You fail at the distance/time argument, which even if you were right about didn't make much sense anyway.

Guess what - Thunder Ridge is even further from Boston. Perhaps that's a better comp for Cannon?

Jiminy, while very well-run, is a 2nd tier resort. Sorry if that hurts feelings. They do tremendous day skier business and a significant night-skiing business as well, drawing from the nearby Capital District, Western Mass, and the CT River Valley region of Hartford to Springfield.

Destination resort are defined by their mix of clientele and the mix/size of terrain they offer. Cannon isn't drawing a big day skier crowd from the greater Franconia metropolitan region. Stop being disingenuous.

 

[Puck it]

I'm sure they could be useful on certain trails and high traffic areas.

That is true, but I would not put in 200 of them like Mt Snow. They do not like the wind if mounted on towers like Attiash. Stand guns are lower to gun and can be positioned to have the trees stop the wind from blowing the snow where it is not wanted.

 

[Puck it]

That statement is nonsensical. If it's too windy for snowmaking, it's too windy for snowmaking, air/water or fan gun.

Tower fan guns are more affected by wind then ground guns. Trees can protect ground guns and keep the snow from blowing ito the woods.

BTW, I say first hand Cannon blowing snow this year with the winds gusting pretty high and it blowing in to the woods, so that statement does hold either.

 

[EPB]

I am still a consultant and I am bound to NDAs.

Fair enough. Hopefully you at least understand why there is considerable doubt that such lifts exist. This site has skiers from all over the northeast posting, and not one has come forth saying that their mountain could have a potential replacement that would fit the criteria for a "like new" lift.

Again, Gunstock and Jiminy are absolutely destination resorts. Again, Jiminy has a very large slopeside complex, which drives the western Berkshire economy in winter. Gunstock fills a large number of beds in the southern Lakes Region.

My last post sheds some light on this situation especially concerning the nature of the replacement there. The type of skier that shows up to Gunstock as opposed to Cannon are completely different. Hopefully you would agree there. Being a destination or not is completely irrelevant, as you failed to address in my last post. Expectations are relevant. Many skiers at Gunstock really have no idea what the difference between an 80's dopp and a new install would be, especially ones that frequent the Pistol area. Again, people using the Mittersill double in the early going would be very experienced skiers who would probably respond more favorably to a new lift, especially compared to any particularly old lift.

And again, I'd venture a guess that 99% of skiers can't tell you the make or age of the chairlift they're riding. So long as it works, looks good, and the chairs are comfortable, no one would notice a difference between a $2.6M and a $0.6M double chairlift at Mittersill. Do you really think a non-Cannon skier would say, "I'm only going to Cannon if they install a 2010 Doppelmayr/CTEC double chair at Mittersill?"

No, but I imagine if they put in a 1974 Mueller, they'd say something to the effect of "Why on Gods green earth would they build such a P.O.S.? This thing's been outdated for hmmmmm. 20 years?" Back to the point, a new install is not necessary, but if they built a lift that appeared to be the same age or older than either the Cannonball or Zoomer, people would take note and it would certainly make Cannon look cheap.

Yes. There are plenty more double chairlifts in New England if condition isn't an issue.

I understand and respect that you are somewhat of an industry insider, but this is a completely unsubstantiated claim from my perspective.

Doppelmayr and CTEC have been the same company for the last decade. Many other brands were actually absorbed by Doppelmayr/CTEC/Garventa and share similarities. For instance, Hall/Von Roll eventually were rolled into CTEC. Borvig was rolled into Partek, which was rolled into Doppelmayr/CTEC.

First sentence: that's exactly why I said that any of the Dopp or CTEC models that they used individually circa 2000 (which date back to roughly 1990 for Dopp and 1985 for CTEC would be acceptable for a "like-new" install. Same goes for used Pomas up to 25ish years old.) Virtually anyone who will ski Mittersill as long as it remains mostly natural could pick out a Hall, Borvig, Mueller, Heron, Stadeli, or Von Roll and tell you that its certainly outdated.

Refurbishing lifts can certainly give them new life, I agree with you there, but to say that nobody will notice or care has its limitations. I, for one, think that it would be completely unreasonable to install doubles that don't fit the criteria I have outlined in my past two responses to you, because people CAN notice when build something especially old and out-dated. As you have mentioned before, building doubles of this length in the models that fit my idea of realistic age and model types are hard to come by. I believe you said it was somewhat of a "custom job" in the past 10 to 15 years. The only pod that is any type of a precedent for Mittersill is Castlerock, that got a NEW Poma double in 2001.

It's clear by now that you think that resorts can pull a quick one on their customers, and I don't. Small trail pods, beginner areas, sure. Why not? You have failed to produce evidence that any reasonably new (see above criteria) and available lift from the north east is out there for the taking. You have also failed to show that any resort has even tried such a move on a trail pod like Mittersill. Cannon isn't a second rate destination resort with many other things to do in the summer, it is a place for more advanced skiers and riders that have much more exposure to good lift systems servicing good terrain. Sure, they compete with everybody in the northeast to some extent, but that is irrelevant when they have their own particular niche to fill. I certainly wouldn't expect a crappy lift there. Would it stop me from skiing there more? Who knows. If the lift is completely garbage, it probably would. I'd feel cheated, and I certainly wouldn't be the only one. Opening Mittersill is a big deal and trying to cut corners to save money in a pod like this is irresponsible and unprecedented.

 

[Puck it]

Has anybody thought they may have to go with a custom double since they have stick within the requirements of the land transfer? This would up the cost.

 

[deadheadskier]

Ultimately, as a NH taxpayer, I don't care about the cost of the lift considering Cannon is running in the Black.

Heck, Hampton Beach is in the midst os a 14.5 million state funded revitilization right now. I don't think that project will bring in any additional people personally. Place is a zoo already.

 

[billski]

Again, Gunstock and Jiminy are absolutely destination resorts. Again, Jiminy has a very large slopeside complex, which drives the western Berkshire economy in winter. Gunstock fills a large number of beds in the southern Lakes Region.

Throwing out a question that probably can't be answered here - I wonder what % of skier visits to Cannon, Gunstock, and Jiminy are overnighters vs. daytrippers. I bet the % is rather similar.

Me thinks EPB needs a marketing 101 course. It's all about market segmentation.
Not all day trippers are created equal. Nor are all destination skiers.
We have lazy skiers, fanatic skiers, party skiers, pamper-me skiers, cheap skiers, busy-too-little time. There are many, many niches to be filled. The key to success is to define your target market , identify your competitors and stick with it.
Jiminy is a destination resort, but very different from Stowe for example. Jiminy defines their target market as being the Hartford-Albany crowd.
Interestingly, if you look at Jay Peak, they do a lot of business with the Montreal crowds - again, back to proximity. It's only a half-hour further than Stowe, but the Boston and NY crowd often stops at Stowe, Bush and so on.

Jiminy doesn't really target the Boston market, because it's too far a drive. Most Boston skiers would point north for a similar destination. Interstingly, Berkshire East finds themselves in a similar situation. I've spoken with marketing folks from both about these things.

Gunstock competes against Loon, - not on terrain, but on Boston proximity, price, and to some extent, a simpler operation. An beginner/intermediate-skill area actually an attraction to to many who don't want to pay for all the black diamonds they'll never use.

Living in metro boston subub-topia I find that "convenience" is a huge factor for many people. How fast can I get in and out? Some define convenience by drive time, some by slope-side accommodation, some by ski lockers, some by all of the above.

I also agree the mid-market money isn't as affected by snow conditions, they expect there will be skiing, and don't get bent out of shape about powder days like we all do.

Each resort has to decide what they want to be.

 

[EPB]

Me thinks EPB needs a marketing 101 course. It's all about market segmentation.

That wasn't my quote, I believe it was from threecy. My biggest observation about main stream marketing is that it is highly manipulative because it probes at the less intellegent's psyche with precision and know-how.

The key to success is to define your target market , identify your competitors and stick with it.

So we seem to agree that the comparisons threecy brought up with refurbished lift installations are invalid? You go into it in more detail with Jiminy, but I didn't quote it all. I'd also be willing to bet that Jay does a substantial amount of its on slope business from greater Montreal.

Each resort has to decide what they want to be.

So would you say that you endorse Cannon's decision to build a new lift?

 

[neil]

Tower fan guns are more affected by wind then ground guns. Trees can protect ground guns and keep the snow from blowing ito the woods.

BTW, I say first hand Cannon blowing snow this year with the winds gusting pretty high and it blowing in to the woods, so that statement does hold either.

I'm all for snowmaking on glade runs

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Tin Woodsman, where are you from? Also at this point I don't even know if I agree or disagree with you, but is your stance that they should have bought a used lift? And that Mittersill doesn't need snowmaking?

I can't read through all this non sense for my answers, sorry to lazy.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Tin Woodsman, where are you from? Also at this point I don't even know if I agree or disagree with you, but is your stance that they should have bought a used lift? And that Mittersill doesn't need snowmaking?

I can't read through all this non sense for my answers, sorry to lazy.

Born and raised in New England.

My stance is that none of us on this board have sufficient information to empirically prove one way or the other whether they should have installed a new or used lift. My objection to threecy was based on his statement that a private ski area would have purchased a used lift. Despite the fact that the differential in up front economics is clear enough, there are so many holes in that POV it can't be taken seriously.

As for snowmaking, I suspect that they will install it on some runs/key problem areas there b/c that's what you do in New England when you're at an elevation of 2000-3000' and have an annual snowfall in the 160" range. Given the current state of the economy, and knowing what a clusterf*ck the annual budgeting process can be, it's not at all surprising that they are taking a piecemeal approach. Get the lift in and re-open the area for the 95% of people who don't do slackcountry while you have the opportunity to do so. Then as budgeting and market demands dictate, add in snowmaking and skier services to more fully integrate Mittersill into Cannon. This approach is not only entirely defensible, it is just these sorts of compromises in the face of competing demands and limited budgets that characterize running any large organization.