Chairlift Overkill!

[4aprice]

IMO The greatest example Blue Mt Pa. 2 sides to the ski area, one with 2 double chairs, the other with a HSP and HSQ. Dumps an incredible amount of people on to the one side.

Alex

Lake Hopatcng, NJ

 

[Smellytele]

I would have to say 5 lifts servicing the front of Mt Snow seems like overkill. If they only run some rarely it means that in fact they are overkill.

 

[drjeff]

I would have to say 5 lifts servicing the front of Mt Snow seems like overkill. If they only run some rarely it means that in fact they are overkill.

I think that general concept of "extra" lifts has more to do with the overall business size of a ski area than anything. How many larger ski areas, especially in the East have similar volumes of business midweek compared to weekends??

Not many. As a result does it make economic sense for them to operate a "redundant" lift on say a mid week, non holiday Tuesday - not really. But that same lift on a weekend when you may literally have 10+ times the volume of people trying to get uphill then makes economic sense, especially, as is the case with most Eastern Resorts with "redundant" lift systems where the redundant lift is generally older and as a result completely paid for (less annual maintenace costs).

Lastly, redundancy in a lift system tends to build in options. Locals tend to love the older, redundant lifts when it gets busy, and in many cases, since the redundant lifts tend to in most cases be fixed grip lifts, they can often provide access in windier and icing conditions quicker than a high speed can.

If resorts with redundant lift systems were being developed from scratch today, would their lift systems look exactly like they do now?? Likely not, but in many cases as the ski resort itself and its lift system evolves over time, you get a sometimes funky, but often very functional system for the demands that are placed on it

 

[Puck it]

Cannon's HSQ tends to cause issues. The Links and Middle Cannon scraped to ice very quickly. IMO, it would have been better to put the unload station near the load of the Cannonball. Plenty of space.

 

[Smellytele]

Cannon's HSQ tends to cause issues. The Links and Middle Cannon scraped to ice very quickly. IMO, it would have been better to put the unload station near the load of the Cannonball. Plenty of space.

Not really overkill just bad top placement

 

[Smellytele]

I think that general concept of "extra" lifts has more to do with the overall business size of a ski area than anything. How many larger ski areas, especially in the East have similar volumes of business midweek compared to weekends??

Not many. As a result does it make economic sense for them to operate a "redundant" lift on say a mid week, non holiday Tuesday - not really. But that same lift on a weekend when you may literally have 10+ times the volume of people trying to get uphill then makes economic sense, especially, as is the case with most Eastern Resorts with "redundant" lift systems where the redundant lift is generally older and as a result completely paid for (less annual maintenace costs).

Lastly, redundancy in a lift system tends to build in options. Locals tend to love the older, redundant lifts when it gets busy, and in many cases, since the redundant lifts tend to in most cases be fixed grip lifts, they can often provide access in windier and icing conditions quicker than a high speed can.

If resorts with redundant lift systems were being developed from scratch today, would their lift systems look exactly like they do now?? Likely not, but in many cases as the ski resort itself and its lift system evolves over time, you get a sometimes funky, but often very functional system for the demands that are placed on it

Are you a Dr or a lawyer? I believe you have used up your allotment of words for the day.
5 lifts is way too many lifts to service the front of Mt Snow which as others have said about other areas - too many people in a given area causes quickly deteriorating conditions and over crowded trails.

 

[Puck it]

Not really overkill just bad top placement

Yeah, but it does dump a lot of people in a bad spot. Another lift going to the Cannonball from the base would help too.

 

[kickstand]

--Attitash--Summit triple and the fast quad cross! Weird lift set up! On Bear peak the bear express dumps waaay too many people their at once. Overkill!

I originally thought the same thing, but when you consider the following, it makes sense:

- it's the quickest/easiest way to get back to Bear Peak
- it's the quickest/easiest way to get to the pipe (when they actually used to use it)
- it's the quickest/easiest way to get to Grandstand, the only trail they consistently let bump up
- it ends just before national forest land begins, so they most likely didn't have to go thru the lengthy permit process with the government
- there are many, many more trail options from the top of the quad than the top of the triple; it can support the uphill capacity

The HSQ was installed for '98-'99. On this 1986 trail map, there was already a lift there. I'm assuming it was the Old Reliable double, removed the season prior. I vaguely recall it, but I'm not 100% on it So, it's not like it was a new chair. They just upgraded it. Plus, it was during ASC's reign, which was all about installing HSQ's.

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/attitash.php

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/attitash.php

 

[thetrailboss]

So yeah--you know what I mean!

My examples:
--Attitash--Summit triple and the fast quad cross! Weird lift set up! On Bear peak the bear express dumps waaay too many people their at once. Overkill!

The crossover doesn't bother me at all. I think it is a necessary evil because of the lift routes.

-Deer Valley--When a ski are has to start limiting the amount of tickets they sell because they don't want to overload the mountain--that is a bad sign!! 5 HS-quads come to a point on Flagstaff mountain (I think)--overkill!

I was going to mention Flagstaff as an example. The ticket limit has nothing to do with the lifts--it has been a longstanding policy IIRC for their guests.

Other lift issues:

One former one was the "Times Square" area at Sugarbush North where the former GM Quad, Northridge Express, and Slidebrook all dumped into one area. Though the GMX is back, this area is still tough to navigate because of the North Ridge base.

Pats Peak has three lifts that run to the summit, but they don't seem to have too much of an issue there.

 

[thetrailboss]

Fixed quad overkill

Sunday River: white heat, little white cap, white cap, aurora, and oz are fixed quads that never seem to be busy. ASC didn't seem to believe in building any chairlifts smaller than a quad.

FWIW those lifts were installed before ASC. Otten put them in when he owned it and I think he anticipated traffic for it at the time. IMHO fixed grip quads make sense because you have enough capacity for growth...rather than a triple that needs to be upgraded.

Sugarbush: Inverness quad

What else would you propose? That lift is used for the GMVS training and offers a nice selection of terrain.

Killington: Canyon quad and Devil's Fiddle quad (RIP).

I agree with the Canyon Quad. It was installed when wide, steep trails were the vogue and that lift was meant to provide access to that area. Devil's Fiddle was to alleviate traffic in that area but as you said it is RIP.

 

[steamboat1]

Snowbird is likely to become a clusterf**k this year with the tram, Mineral Basin HSQ & now Little Cloud HSQ all dumping in the same general area.

 

[Smellytele]

Pats Peak has three lifts that run to the summit, but they don't seem to have too much of an issue there.

With Pats the way they are located you tend to only ski the trails that are near the lift you go up. For example it has a little difficult to get to the trails on the right (Twister,FIS) from the Hurricane triple. Also it is kind of hard to get to the top part of Hurricane from the other 2 lifts.

 

[steamboat1]

Devil's Fiddle was to alleviate traffic in that area but as you said it is RIP.

Devils Fiddle was put in for access from the Northeast passage. Neither of which exist anymore.

 

[Glenn]

Mt. Snow did a good job managing the people at the top last year. They often had the ambassadors heping to direct "traffic" and ensuring the folks weren't standing in the unload zones. It got tight at times, but I found it managable.

 

[x10003q]

Well said. People always want high-speed chairs but in reality, in many cases, high-speed chairs only result in a worse skiing experience because the skiing area cannot handle the traffic.

It is a little more complicated than a blanket "blame the high speed lift". A fixed grip quad might have more rated capacity than a HSQ. During off peak periods a HS lift will deliver more people to the top vs FG with the same capacity. But since there are so many less people on the mountain I do not think this is the main reason for crappy conditions.

I think in most cases HS lifts improve the skiing. They are easier to load and unload. Maybe you have have not had the fun of a 7000 ft, 20 minute ride in crappy weather.

As for chairlift overkill? I am just not buying it. When I started skiing lift lines on weekends were crazy. If you want to try out some old school lift lines and slow chairs head up to Smugglers on a holiday weekend. The terrain is awesome. At the end of the day you will be amazed that you are not tired. Then you will realize you had about 1 run per hour. For me that is not enough skiing.

 

[bobbutts]

re: mount snow
It's been awhile since I've been there, but somehow I doubt that they managed the clusterf on Long John.

 

[drjeff]

It is a little more complicated than a blanket "blame the high speed lift". A fixed grip quad might have more rated capacity than a HSQ. During off peak periods a HS lift will deliver more people to the top vs FG with the same capacity. But since there are so many less people on the mountain I do not think this is the main reason for crappy conditions.

I think in most cases HS lifts improve the skiing. They are easier to load and unload. Maybe you have have not had the fun of a 7000 ft, 20 minute ride in crappy weather.

As for chairlift overkill? I am just not buying it. When I started skiing lift lines on weekends were crazy. If you want to try out some old school lift lines and slow chairs head up to Smugglers on a holiday weekend. The terrain is awesome. At the end of the day you will be amazed that you are not tired. Then you will realize you had about 1 run per hour. For me that is not enough skiing.

Good point! With the exception of maybe Killington, most ski areas in the Northeast haven't had any appreciable drop off in the number of their total skier visits (most actually increasing) in the last 20 years or so since high speed lifts have become more the norm as opposed to the exception. And frankly having skied all throughout that era, I haven't noticed any appreciable drop off in the conditions over that time as a result of the era, even with in many cases more people on the slopes both on any given day and cumulatively over the season. Granted snowmaking and grooming have also advanced over that time frame, and that obviously plays a roll too. But the reality is that with or without a high speed lift(s) servicing a pod of terrain, if you've got a main "feeder" trail, most of which tend to be something that most lower level skiers and riders can negotiate, from say noontime on on a busy weekend or holiday, it's going to have some "interesting" conditions on it.

If I can get more runs in per day, with less time up in the air on the lift, and no real overall deterioration of the snow surface over the course of the ski day than there historically has been, i'm good with that!

 

[thetrailboss]

Snowbird is likely to become a clusterf**k this year with the tram, Mineral Basin HSQ & now Little Cloud HSQ all dumping in the same general area.

You know I thought that as well, but they really did a good job regrading the Little Cloud unload area and it is much bigger. They are also making the Little Cloud an angle unload, with folks dumping out towards Road to Provo. They did a nice job widening Road to Ogden. I initially thought that it would be problematic as well. We'll see how it goes.

 

[thetrailboss]

Devils Fiddle was put in for access from the Northeast passage. Neither of which exist anymore.

Yep, I forgot about that. Good point. That whole side was pretty much abandoned.

 

[bobbutts]

~50' of snow per season at the top of the lifts at Snowbird kind of softens the blow