EVs - New Hampshire gets it right

[AdironRider]

Elon does seem to require a lot of government subsidies before a business of his is successful.

But you claiming it isn’t politics without acknowledging the limitations of EVs doesn’t line up. They are not the superior technology currently and have a long way to go currently before they can justify mass adoption.

 

[Harvey]

Your going with hydrogen while all the major auto companies are going with electric. Not saying hydrogen isn't good or even better than electric, just doesn't matter as the choice has been made and it is electric.

Choices change. I got these songs I want to play but I can't find a turntable or a beta max or a cd player.

There are many people that own cars but don't necessarily have a spot to plug it in overnight

Not everyone needs to buy the same kind of car. Hybrids do well in the city and could be a solution for those with no place to charge.

And maybe I would if all this EV stuff were happening without tax money supplying the gap between what they lose as compared to what they create. Its not close to profitable

Reminds me of the every other form of government spending.

I'm hoping hydrogen is the ultimate path forward. The way battery minerals are mined is atrocious. It does seem like electric is coming, for now. If the batteries get much smaller and lighter that will improve the odds that EV will be permanent.

 

[cdskier]

Choices change. I got these songs I want to play but I can't find a turntable or a beta max or a cd player.

Agreed, just because there's a lot of focus on EV today doesn't necessarily mean that will be the right choice 10, 20, 30, 40, etc years from now. Maybe it will...maybe it won't...

Not everyone needs to buy the same kind of car. Hybrids do well in the city and could be a solution for those with no place to charge.

Agreed again. There's a push from some people (in general, not anyone specific on this forum necessarily) that 100% EV is the only option of the future though and we need to eliminate fossil fuel entirely. I think that's a misguided view. Hybrid absolutely can help in some scenarios where pure EV is not realistic.

Reminds me of the every other form of government spending.

I'm hoping hydrogen is the ultimate path forward. The way battery minerals are mined is atrocious. It does seem like electric is coming, for now. If the batteries get much smaller and lighter that will improve the odds that EV will be permanent.

Yea...I'm a bit concerned about whether we truly understand the long term impact of all these additional batteries. Reminds me a bit of when plastic bags were touted as such a "great" option compared to paper bags. Now we've learned plastic wasn't so great either. Sometimes we rush to change things before fully understanding the changes and impacts.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

as an urban apartment dweller who parks in an offsite outdoor lot without charging facilities, who also drives 500 miles on a typical cold weather weekend, hybrid is the only possible quasi electric option for the foreseeable future for me. but i plan to drive my nissan rogue into the ground first and thats gonna take a few years

 

[Former Sunday Rivah Rat]

lol. skin cancer from cell phone. lol.

Brain Cancer from cell phone use is real. Both John McCain and Ted Kennedy died from that. Use hands free or earphones.

 

[skiur]

Just wear one of these while on your phone!

 

[deadheadskier]

Elon does seem to require a lot of government subsidies before a business of his is successful.

But you claiming it isn’t politics without acknowledging the limitations of EVs doesn’t line up. They are not the superior technology currently and have a long way to go currently before they can justify mass adoption.

If you want to disagree with my POV, that's fine. But, don't lie about my POV. I have definitely said that I agree that things like range, available charging stations and current costs are limitations. I just don't think they're as big of a limitation as most people here think and that EVs are practical today for vastly more people than what most of you all think.

The technology is superior from a fuel through put efficiency position and the simplicity of the engine design. EVs convert 75% of power to motion, ICE 25%. EVs have a fraction of the moving parts that an ICE engine does. That means less maintenance and fewer points of failure. That is superior technology in my eyes.

Okay, what about the batteries? You've brought that up as a major issue. The low end estimates of battery life on EVs is 8 years in extreme weather environments, but better than that in the more temperate climates that the majority of people live in. What's the average amount of time Americans own a car? 8 years. Chances are if you buy a new EV, you'll never have to worry about replacing the battery.

Mind you, I'm not wed to LI Batteries here. If Hydrogen proves to be just as good of a power source and is less harmful to the environment, then that's the direction things will ultimately go.

My position isn't about the power source as much as it is about the engine designs that are only getting better. We've reached pretty much the end of the line on how much we can improve an ICE vehicle. The new tech is just beginning and while I agree that political forces are pushing the new tech faster than maybe free market conditions would, that's not the whole story. A big part of it is that the engineers realize there can be better ways than ICE.

I've said my piece. I guess time will tell, but I think bumping this thread in 5 years will find us in a very different place than where we are today.

 

[Former Sunday Rivah Rat]

Personal politics? Not at all. I'm not some greeny. I could give a shit that electric is greener.
We've had ICE vehicles way over a century and are basically at the end of the line in terms of technology development.

EV's have been around for well over 100 years , nothing new under the sun :

History of Early Electric Cars | GreenCars

You might be surprised to know that electric cars have been with us since before the gasoline engine became popular. Learn more about the history here.

www.greencars.com

If my politics had anything to do with this discussion, I'd be the opposite. I'd be rooting for the EV industry to collapse because I think Musk is one of the biggest Aholes on the planet and don't want to support something that further enriches him. You probably love him.

Way to go totally political there DH.

 

[Harvey]

EVs are practical today for vastly more people than what most of you all think.

Also if you have multiple cars in a household, a hybrid and an ev could get you anywhere you need to be.

 

[deadheadskier]

EV's have been around for well over 100 years , nothing new under the sun :

History of Early Electric Cars | GreenCars

You might be surprised to know that electric cars have been with us since before the gasoline engine became popular. Learn more about the history here.

www.greencars.com

Way to go totally political there DH.

My POV was being challenged as political and I responded. Sorry sir. Maybe someone else shouldn't have made that accusation first.

And if I haven't made myself crystal clear enough, I'm bullish on the tech because I believe it's already better than ICE in a number of ways today and has the potential to be better than ICE in every way in the future. It has nothing to do with being green or which politicians support EVs or government laws or regulations impacting investment decisions. I just think EV tech is better positioned to evolve to go further than we ever have with ICE cars.

I have said my piece. People can believe in the tech like I do or not. It'll be interesting to see where we are in five years.

 

[JimG.]

 

[Smellytele]

DHS so yes people usually own cars for 8 years but how do you sell a used 8 year old EV or 6 or 7 year old EV if people know the batteries only last 8 years? Who wants to buy a vehicle that is going to need a 10-15 thousand dollar battery? You can sell a used ICE and make a lot of your money back.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Brain Cancer from cell phone use is real. Both John McCain and Ted Kennedy died from that. Use hands free or earphones.

You truly make yourself look stupider with every post and reaction you leave on this board. Good job champ.

 

[deadheadskier]

DHS so yes people usually own cars for 8 years but how do you sell a used 8 year old EV or 6 or 7 year old EV if people know the batteries only last 8 years? Who wants to buy a vehicle that is going to need a 10-15 thousand dollar battery? You can sell a used ICE and make a lot of your money back.

What I've read is it's 8 years under poor conditions, up to 20 under good conditions. I imagine what you start to see is reduced costs on batteries as volumes go up, perhaps refurbished batteries at lower cost, warrantees offered by dealerships, used batteries available pulled from wrecked cars etc.

It's certainly a long term maintenance concern to consider, but I imagine the industry figures out a way to overcome it.

 

[Hawk]

I think this stigma of the electric vehicles will slowly decrease as gas becomes more expensive over the next 20 or so years. Also more of the baby boomers and gen X will have passed away taking thier stubborn love of gas burning big old engines. Also this younger tech hungry generation will be of prime earning years and want newer more hip alternatives. For myself, until the EV's are 30 to 40K like my Subaru, with 4 wheel drive, have extended the range of the charge and have readily availible changing, I probably will not get into the game. But who knows, my wife might say I wan one. I can't argue with the boss. She earns half the income. ;-)

 

[Smellytele]

What I've read is it's 8 years under poor conditions, up to 20 under good conditions. I imagine what you start to see is reduced costs on batteries as volumes go up, perhaps refurbished batteries at lower cost, warrantees offered by dealerships, used batteries available pulled from wrecked cars etc.

It's certainly a long term maintenance concern to consider, but I imagine the industry figures out a way to overcome it.

My wife works with a woman who’s battery needed replacing after 5 years and it was going to cost 14k. She traded it in for pennies on the dollar. Think I’ll wait it out before I go full electric.

 

[AdironRider]

DHS keeps saying his piece apparently, brushing off five digit repair bills needed after 8 years in a country where the average vehicle's age is almost 12 years.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

If the solid state batteries are even close to the mileage claims in New England climate conditions, I’m in on one.

Even half is better than a tank of gas in an ice.

 

[Harvey]

Batteries are $10,000 for full EV? Hybrids would be less I assume.

Our 2012 Prius has the original batteries, with 140,000 miles on it.

How do you tell if the batteries are bad? Mileage would drop? The mileage remains unchanged at about 52mpg.

I'd bet the ROI on our car (extra spent on hybrid vs gas money saved) is ok after 140k.

What is the value of plus 10mpg for 140k miles? I can't remember what that car cost, but it wasn't much.

 

[kbroderick]

I think this stigma of the electric vehicles will slowly decrease as gas becomes more expensive over the next 20 or so years. Also more of the baby boomers and gen X will have passed away taking thier stubborn love of gas burning big old engines. Also this younger tech hungry generation will be of prime earning years and want newer more hip alternatives. For myself, until the EV's are 30 to 40K like my Subaru, with 4 wheel drive, have extended the range of the charge and have readily availible changing, I probably will not get into the game. But who knows, my wife might say I wan one. I can't argue with the boss. She earns half the income. ;-)

I have my doubts about ever seeing an EV with AWD at that pricepoint and extended range, but my perspective may be warped by watching the pickup-truck price points recently. I wouldn't be shocked to see an AWD EV at that pricepoint, but I'd expect it to be something like a lower-trim Crosstrek: usable transportation without premium features. Extended range is decidedly a premium feature, and more so in an EV than in an ICE vehicle.

My wife works with a woman who’s battery needed replacing after 5 years and it was going to cost 14k. She traded it in for pennies on the dollar. Think I’ll wait it out before I go full electric.

I've seen a non-trivial number of people report needing $5-10k in engine work in F-150s that are around similar ages. It doesn't make it a statistically significant problem, and with both batteries and engines, the original owner's behavior can have a significant impact on service life.

I've also seen more discussion online of non-manufacturer service of battery packs, which brings the cost way down. I'd want to do a lot of research on a particular repair person and methodology before having a third-party-repaired EV battery in my garage, but if you live in a right-to-repair jurisdiction, there's a very reasonable chance of finding a reputable non-OEM option (rather like the $50 batteries we install into old Macbooks rather than the multi-hundred-dollar OEM replacement cost).