Future Lift Installations

[machski]

I cannot see the amount of investment for a new TTB Gondola at Sugarloaf. A triple ropeway would have adequate wind tolerance but anything less would not and the cost of those is too high. Not to mention the terminal structure required. I also do not think they would be able to get through a Summit building. The old never had water or sewer service if I understand correctly. And getting those permits above treeline today would be a challenge for sure. They need other base/village improvements and investment before a high priced TTB Luxury lift gets put in.

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[Smellytele]

I remember riding the old gondi there in the early 90's. It was a rickety scary contraption.The worst I every rode. Rode the lower half only 1 time the last year it was open - spring of 91 or 92 maybe? The upper half was pieced together with old parts from the lower half to keep going and I rode that a few more times after that.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yeah I just don't see how a gondola makes sense going to the windiest ski area summit in the East. It would probably take a Funitel and I've read those cost in the neighborhood of $20M. For that kinda coin you could probably put a gondola up Bucksaw, an extended new Timberline chair down to Bullwinkle's, a summit surface lift in and have money to spare after.

You are probably right about summit lodge permitted as well. I think utilizing Bullwinkle's is probably the only reasonable play considering permitting and the construction cost of a lodge up top.

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[Jully]

You are probably right about summit lodge permitted as well. I think utilizing Bullwinkle's is probably the only reasonable play considering permitting and the construction cost of a lodge up top.

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The summit lodge is definitely a huge problem. In terms of on mountain restaurants/function spaces, a new spot at the top of Wiffletree has been tossed around too. New on mountain establishments are expensive and while it would be nice to have two spots, I think I'd rather see that money go elsewhere too.

 

[ceo]

A Funitel or 3S would be completely pointless; there's no need for that kind of capacity up there. I still say the wind issue is, er, overblown; if you run it along the looker's-right side of Gondi Line (which you'd have to anyway if the base is next to the competition center) and low down, with some nice heavy carriers you shouldn't see much more wind holds than Skyline.

 

[deadheadskier]

Snowshoe has some really cool satellite F&B venues. They call them the Outback cabins. No running water, so the food and drink options were limited. Just rustic cabins with wood stoves, electricity and out houses. They were really nice though. I could see something like that working over at the base of King Pine.

I've read about the top of Whiffletree option. That would be cool to. Might get more bang for their buck if they doubled the size of the restaurant space in Bullwinkle's so you could host larger weddings and events

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[Smellytele]

Snowshoe has some really cool satellite F&B venues. They call them the Outback cabins. No running water, so the food and drink options were limited. Just rustic cabins with wood stoves, electricity and out houses. They were really nice though. I could see something like that working over at the base of King Pine.

I've read about the top of Whiffletree option. That would be cool to. Might get more bang for their buck if they doubled the size of the restaurant space in Bullwinkle's so you could host larger weddings and events

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A yurt with grill cheeses like Saddleback had

 

[sull1102]

Yeah I just don't see how a gondola makes sense going to the windiest ski area summit in the East. It would probably take a Funitel and I've read those cost in the neighborhood of $20M. For that kinda coin you could probably put a gondola up Bucksaw, an extended new Timberline chair down to Bullwinkle's, a summit surface lift in and have money to spare after.

You are probably right about summit lodge permitted as well. I think utilizing Bullwinkle's is probably the only reasonable play considering permitting and the construction cost of a lodge up top.

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I don't get this thinking or the issue because when I was overseas they had lifts that are exposed from top to bottom in the freakin Alps going up over 9,000-10,000ft. They seem to just be able to run in more extreme crosswinds, whether that's these major resorts just taking a risk or design I do not know.

I also think it is pretty interesting that Sugarbush and Sugarloaf both ripped out their TTB Gondis and yet Stratton runs there's until someone sneezes too hard then shut it down for the day. Stratton also put in AmEx/Ursa 6's to make up for it. It is just interesting to see the different approaches.

 

[deadheadskier]

Height of mountain doesn't always matter. Look at My Washington. It's only 6k feet and one of the windiest mountains on Earth.

Aspect and surrounding topography make a big difference. Look at the difference between Saddleback and Sugarloaf. Far more windy at Loaf, yet their lifts reach a similar altitude.

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[raisingarizona]

Height of mountain doesn't always matter. Look at My Washington. It's only 6k feet and one of the windiest mountains on Earth.

Aspect and surrounding topography make a big difference. Look at the difference between Saddleback and Sugarloaf. Far more windy at Loaf, yet their lifts reach a similar altitude.

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My thoughts are more linked to the skiing experience. The mountain is sort of flat on the lower half and steep on the upper half so why do a ttb lift? I don’t see the value in it. I don’t need to ski 800 verts of beginner trail every run, that just gets annoying.

 

[raisingarizona]

I think ski area marketers used to really like the idea of ttb lifts but i think it’s been proven to be an unnecessary expense. Places like killington, SL and Gore all removed theirs for a good reason.

 

[JimG.]

My thoughts are more linked to the skiing experience. The mountain is sort of flat on the lower half and steep on the upper half so why do a ttb lift? I don’t see the value in it. I don’t need to ski 800 verts of beginner trail every run, that just gets annoying.

Totally agree with this.

As much as I like the gondi at Belleayre I don't ride it much because of the beginner runout at the bottom.

 

[ss20]

Height of mountain doesn't always matter. Look at My Washington. It's only 6k feet and one of the windiest mountains on Earth.AlpineZone mobile app

Is that what you call it?

 

[deadheadskier]

My thoughts are more linked to the skiing experience. The mountain is sort of flat on the lower half and steep on the upper half so why do a ttb lift? I don’t see the value in it. I don’t need to ski 800 verts of beginner trail every run, that just gets annoying.

I definitely agree with you on the run out part. It would probably be a lift that gets used by most people one time in the morning and once after lunch just to get to the top in one quick shot to access wherever you want to get to on the mountain.

If they wanted another lift to hit the summit other than Timberline and the discussed surface lift, a chairlift going up Gondi-line starting at the Peavy X-cut probably makes more sense.

I'm only bringing up the wind conditions because it's the reality of that mountain. The summit is nastier than anywhere else in the East by good margin.

To me, Lift priorities I see over a ttb or upper mountain lift up Gondi-line would be.

1. Double Runner realignment and upgrade
2. Superquad to Super Six. The lift is getting old and the lines on it atrocious. More capacity is needed
3. Bucksaw lift
4. Surface lift from lower Bracket Basin to the base of King Pine
5. Timberline realignment and upgrade
6. Summit Surface lift

I'd want to see any one of these upgrades accomplished prior to a TTB lift.

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[deadheadskier]

Is that what you call it?

It's what I call autocorrect

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[ceo]

SL has also made noises about a KP replacement starting further down on the same alignment, to pick up Brackett Basin traffic. I'm definitely a minority in this, but I'd love to see a surface lift up Burnt Mountain from there. The existing Brackett glades (Birler, Edger, Sweeper) would be unaffected as you'd still have to hike that little ridgeline.
This is the current iteration of my Sugarloaf Master Plan, which I fully expect to be presented in its entirety at the next shareholders' meeting. <-- that's a joke.

 

[Jully]

SL has also made noises about a KP replacement starting further down on the same alignment, to pick up Brackett Basin traffic. I'm definitely a minority in this, but I'd love to see a surface lift up Burnt Mountain from there. The existing Brackett glades (Birler, Edger, Sweeper) would be unaffected as you'd still have to hike that little ridgeline.
This is the current iteration of my Sugarloaf Master Plan, which I fully expect to be presented in its entirety at the next shareholders' meeting. <-- that's a joke.

If they can cut to lookers right of Timberline, I agree with you, that would an awesome pod to add.

I'd love Burnt to stay as is, but I don't think that is in Sugarloaf's best interests. I am not sure what makes more financial sense though - the cat skiing or surface lift.

The problem with KP extending down to pick up Brackett traffic is that it becomes a big runout for the actual trail pod. The best thing about SL's upper mountain lifts is the fact that there is absolutely no runout.

I'd rather see a short self service surface lift to get you up to KP. Something like Winter Park does with the Lariat by the Zephyr express to get folks up to the on mountain restaurant.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to see an extension of KP. It's perfect the way it is.

That's why I had suggested a simple surface lift from lower Bracket back to KP. Or even a double chair. Right now you have to cut back too earlier to get to the lift. It makes for short vertical out there. My thought is you try and maintain some effort requirement on the traverse out, but provide an experience that you can ski those glades further down the fall line and have a reasonable way to get out of there. I've only explored far out and down low at Bracket once and it was a complete pain in the ass to cut over and through the Whiffletree area condos.

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[machski]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to see an extension of KP. It's perfect the way it is.

That's why I had suggested a simple surface lift from lower Bracket back to KP. Or even a double chair. Right now you have to cut back too earlier to get to the lift. It makes for short vertical out there. My thought is you try and maintain some effort requirement on the traverse out, but provide an experience that you can ski those glades further down the fall line and have a reasonable way to get out of there. I've only explored far out and down low at Bracket once and it was a complete pain in the ass to cut over and through the Whiffletree area condos.

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Just remember, any surface lift will cut a do not cross line along its path. Thus I'd rather see a low capacity double or nothing go onto Burnt and while I hate the flat runout below KP, I'd prefer no lower lift or extension there as well.

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[Smellytele]

Just remember, any surface lift will cut a do not cross line along its path. Thus I'd rather see a low capacity double or nothing go onto Burnt and while I hate the flat runout below KP, I'd prefer no lower lift or extension there as well.

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If you run it from the upper log yard parallel to the stub's trail it wouldn't cut off anything as I believe there is a stream and a ridge there that you can't get up anyway and you can still get to Lower stub's if you really wanted to.