gas prices this summer yikes

[ctenidae]

Industry trying to mitigate those costs is what will drive fuel reform the most.

The Texas Congress just voted to remove the 20 cent gas tax, which will fly politically (I'd call it blatant pandering, but that's just me), but it solves nothing in the long term, and will probably lead to a pretty massive budget deficit, even if it does just last 90 days (and how do you reintroduce the tax without alienating voters?)

 

[ctenidae]

The best route is conservation

Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a winner.

 

[trtaylor]

Good thread.

For anyone who is interested, I'll provide these links to some good energy blogs. I know there are others (such as Oil Drum), but these are the ones I read.

http://energyoutlook.blogspot.com
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy
http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I think Ctenidae's point is that if the price is $5 then people will start to get serious about conserving. We have been thru this before and as soon as the gas price went back down people's motivation to conserve went out of the window.

It definately all comes down to the wallet. It's a bitter pill to swallow for many but how else do you get people to REALLY conserve? How about a significant tax credit if you buy a very fuel efficient car? You can deduct from your taxes what you spend on public transportation?

 

[loafer89]

I am worried that with $5 a gallon oil, the American Public will demand increased pressure be put on Alaska and other domestic sources or energy which would degrade our environment further. In one way I want to see increased prices to force conservation, but I am also afraid of the environmental consequences.

 

[bvibert]

I am worried that with $5 a gallon oil, the American Public will demand increased pressure be put on Alaska and other domestic sources or energy which would degrade our environment further.

That's what I'm worried about too...

 

[ctenidae]

I am worried that with $5 a gallon oil, the American Public will demand increased pressure be put on Alaska and other domestic sources or energy which would degrade our environment further. In one way I want to see increased prices to force conservation, but I am also afraid of the environmental consequences.

Certainly a concern. The good news, though, is that even if we started drilling ANWR today, no oil would be online for about 10 years. The oil companies aren't pushing for ANWR to be opened because it's so tough to get to, and no one wants to be the first to get beat up for it. Economically and politically, ANWR's not viable.

Coal will continue to be very important- after all, we have more BTUs in our coal stocks than the entire Middle East has in oil. I was talking to the (effective) owner of International Coal Group (yes, the guys that own the Sago mine), and he was (not surprisingly) pretty upbeat on coal gassification. Some of the technologies coming out actually allow for the capture of a lot of pollutants, especially sulfur, before it's gassified, so it's a physical rather than chemical process (plus you end up with a saleable byproduct). Gassification doesn't do much for transportation, but it does put some oil back into the system. These guys (http://www.coaltek.com/) have a pretty interesting system for cleaning coal prior to burning, too, and it looks like it'll be a goer.

Of course, coal mining has its own environmental issues, no matter how clean burning it can be. UNH has a pretty interesting program on algal biodiesel (http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html)- I think that's some pretty cool technology, and could be a big help, particularly for trucks and such.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

The high cost of gas is starting to have a broader neg effect on our economy. The monthly retail numbers came out yesterday and April sales were softer than expected, raising concerns that retailers will see poor sales results in the months ahead.

Course the experts and economic pundits point to the high gas prices as the main reason. Personally I don't buy that for the simple fact the price of gas in April last year was about the same.

Gap was down 16% but interestingly Saks was up 11%. Walmart had the weakest April ever. That fact alone scares the hell out of the stock market. This was the catylyst for slide in the stock market yesterday and anxiety in the other dominoes in line has increased.

I take this as good news as I mentioned in my first post, when this start happening then economic checks and balances come to play, once the price stabilizes, people adapt and go on there merrily way just like last year and years before that.

 

[loafer89]

An interesting bit of reading from Winkpedia:

After World War II, the US Bureau of Mines opened a demonstration mine at Anvils Point, just west of Rifle, Colorado, which operated at a small-scale. In the early sixties TOSCO (The Oil Shale Corporation) opened an underground mine and built an experimental plant near Parachute, Colorado. It closed in the late sixties because the price of production exceeded the cost of imported crude oil. It was not until the oil crisis of the 1970s and the US becoming a net importer of oil that efforts at utilization were increased. Military uses were deemed less important and commercial exploitation came to the fore, with several oil companies investing. Unocal returned to the same area where TOSCO had worked. Several billion dollars were spent until declining oil prices rendered production uneconomical once more and Unocal withdrew in 1991. In late 2005, President Bush authorized discrete mining of federally owned reserves under Colorado's surface. The federal government currently owns 72% of all known oil shale in the US.

How do you do mining in a discrete manner?:-?

 

[ctenidae]

How do you do mining in a discrete manner?

Some you can (shaft mines, anyway, if you forget about the tailings). Oil shale, not so much- it's pretty much open pit (cheaper) or a really tough method involving sinking heater coils into hole to "melt" the oil and suck it out. A little cleaner, much more expensive, adn it requires the continual boring of new holes.
The whole Colorado oil shale thing has been blown out so many times, I can't see it happening anytime real soon on any sort of scale. At oil prices that make it worthwhile, other methods are better. Interesting bit of non-publicized politicking, though.

 

[loafer89]

We get a small break on gasoline by purchasing it at our local Stop&Shop which sells 87 octane for $3.07 and we get $0.5 cents off per gallon for being a customer and an additional $0.10 per gallon for shopping in their store and spending more than $50 per week, which works out to $2.92 per gallon and that is not bad.

I managed to shop around in Vermont last weekend while driving up and got $2.89 in Ludlow. Gas was $3.15 at Killington.

 

[bigbog]

........

So can anyone tell us what this administration's energy policy has been?
The only thing I can come up with is....Plunder Iraq....and Lower taxes for the wealthiest....:???:

 

[Marc]

So can anyone tell us what this administration's energy policy has been?
The only thing I can come up with is....Plunder Iraq....and Lower taxes for the wealthiest....:???:

The topic made me cringe.

Please keep this discussion non-political.

The first hint of politics (close already) will lead to a lock.

*Sigh*



Reading is fundamental.

 

[riverc0il]

Gap was down 16% but interestingly Saks was up 11%. Walmart had the weakest April ever. That fact alone scares the hell out of the stock market. This was the catylyst for slide in the stock market yesterday and anxiety in the other dominoes in line has increased.

This is the unfortunate side effect of gas prices increasing (the only unfortunate side effect, in my opinion), people who make less money can't afford some things any more. If you are living pay check to pay check, gas prices could have a significant effect on spending habits. So Walmart having the weakest April ever while Saks is up 11% might suggest the hypothesis that folks with less money are hurt worse than those with more money.

But lets take a closer look at gas prices. Some of the cheapest cars on the market are 30+ MPG fuel efficient economy cars. So having a gas guzzler is personal choice unless it is needed for a job, but having that job is personal choice as well. Now the economics of gas prices is that gas prices went up about 50 cents in the past month. For a fuel efficient vehicle that is generally going to be one 10-12 gallon fill up per week or.....$5-$6 additional a week. Chump Change. Someone has to be living completely pay check to pay check for this to hurt. But if people do not have a fuel efficient vehicle (say a big truck or a SUV), you can pretty much double the effect to $10-$12. That is still less than the cost of two people eating out once a week. One less trip to McD's would pay for that difference.

If the current +3 bucks per gas is making people adjust their spending habits, well good. But for most people, this shouldn't have any practical difference. Any adjustments in spending at this point are likely psychologically induced freak out effects or people truly living pay check to pay check.

 

[Warp Daddy]

yada yada yada --its still all governed by greedy sobs in the oil companies , They gouge bcuz they can its that simple

 

[bigbog]

..........

yada yada yada --its still all governed by greedy sobs in the oil companies , They gouge bcuz they can its that simple

...And the media will manufacture excuses...and buy into song-&-dance interviews...imho.
The heads of mass media make too many secretive friends in the political realm via the bank account....and serious question, on-camera hosts are too few.

$.01

 

[bigbog]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a winner.

Unfortunately, the people driving the most(along with those flying) during the week, drive the least on weeknights & weekends....you know, see the family & chores...(duh).
If this country wants to remain an important player, government has to stop holding back progress by allowing automobile and energy companies to grossly profit while holding the public hostage from an energy self-sufficient future.

 

[Marc]

Well the only course of official action to counter percieved price "gouging" is price control. Do we really want to revisit that one?

 

[ctenidae]

Well the only course of official action to counter percieved price "gouging" is price control. Do we really want to revisit that one?

It has worked so well in the past.

 

[riverc0il]

yada yada yada --its still all governed by greedy sobs in the oil companies , They gouge bcuz they can its that simple

It really is not that simple. Gas prices are the way they are because consumers are willing to pay those prices and not seek out alternatives. And what is this greedy thing? I am the LAST person to defend American Style Capitalism, but I will defend it against double standards. When any other company tried to make money (especially one we work for or are invested in), it is great but when an oil company tries to make money they are greedy? Not logical. All corporations are "greedy" by default because their shareholders demand it. We are part of the problem if we have 401ks which, btw, most likely include oil companies in the portfolios we are invested in. The gouging issue doesn't take into a simple part of the margin equation: if a company retains the same margin, then profits go up when costs go up by default, all other things being equal. Good for the oil companies for making a buck, bad for consumers for letting them do it on our dime.