Great top to bottom runs!

[deadheadskier]

There are fantastic runs EVERYWHERE in the Northeast for Top to Bottom Runs. In that regard, every mountain has at least one, if not a few gems.

Every substantial mountain in the east with 1500 feet of vert or more has at least one great top to bottom run that I think all of us here would enjoy - even the blue cruiser type trails such as Tote Road at Sugarloaf or Lord at Stowe or World Cup at Okemo.

There's been a lot of great ones listed in this thread, but this has somewhat turned into a Sugarbush vs. Stowe debate.

Seriously though, let's end the debate on that one.

Even the most ardent homers though can't deny that Stowe is KING when it comes to top to bottom skiing on the east coast. It's pure physics. No ski area in the East has such broad shoulders offering more top to bottom routes of consistent verticle minus traverses and relatively small run outs than Stowe does. Right to left - Sterling, Main Street, Smugglers, Chin Clip, Gondolier, Perry Merrill, Nose Dive, Goat, National, Liftline, Starr, Look Out, Hayride, Lord, North Slope, Sunrise/Tyro/Gulch. These are all runs that are pretty much a mile a long over the course of 1500+ verticle.

To me the key component outside of lack of traverses and flat run outs is that if I'm skiing top to bottom, I want to be riding a lift; bottom to top. Again this is obviously something Stowe excells at. Stowe's 'pods' are all top to bottom. Big Sruce, the Gondola, and Four Runner Quad run top to bottom. I love Narrow Guage at Sugarloaf. I love Upper and Lower FIS at Sugarbush, but the fact that you have to take multiple lifts to experience these trails is a deterrent to skiing them in full. At Stowe, you ALWAYS ski top to bottom, unless you're skiing off the triple either due to windhold or to avoid crowds at the Forerunner Quad.

I guess my point is that there are great Top to Bottom runs everywhere in the big mountains of the Northeast, but there really is no arguement as to which mountain overall skis top to bottom best with the greatest variety.

Stowe is the clear winner for that claim. No area in the east is better for top to bottom runs than Stowe.

Now back to the discussion on great top to bottom trails.

 

[Newpylong]

I couldn't disagree more that Sugarbush and Pico are some of the worst mountains for top to bottom runs.... I would rate Sugarbush up pretty high, and there are much worse than Pico (like its next door neighbor).

I would rate the Loaf' and Stowe as some of the winners though....

 

[awf170]

austin, have you skied stowe? it isn't anything too shabby by a long shot. i wouldn't just ski stowe for the OB if i went there and paid for a ticket.

Yes, once. I just looked at the trail map and noticed I did every double black there besides for the really short one under the gondi, and lookout. I wasn't really that impressed. Goat is awesome and is probably one of the best trails in the east, the problem is that everybody knows that, so it gets tracked out wicked fast. Then everything else didn't impress me too much, just steep and not that interesting, except for hackets highway, that trail is often overlooked and truley rocks IMO. Bypass was also pretty nice. So yeah I would probably spend some time skiing Stowe inbounds but not a ton. Stowe is an awesome mountain terrian wise IMO, but is just too popular and has too much lift capiticy, it must of been awesome when the single was there.

jay peak's run out for example KILLS me, despite it having some ballsy tree shots on the way down from any side of the peak. so that is just my perspective, flat run outs suck, i hate them, i despise them, and that is the basis of my opinion.

Yeah, it is brutal. It is tiring, boring, and waste a bunch of time. I haven't even done BP or BBP the last 3 days I have been there because of that brutal run out. Thats why the Jet area is the best IMO.

 

[deadheadskier]

Stowe is an awesome mountain terrian wise IMO, but is just too popular and has too much lift capiticy, it must of been awesome when the single was there.

Stowe is indeed popular, it probably ranks fith for Vermont in terms of skier visits. I can't find the stats, but if I had to hazard a guess in terms of what Vermont mountains received the most skier visits on average over the past five years it would be

Killington
Okemo
Stratton
Mt Snow
Stowe


Your arguement for uphill capacity though is not a good one. Stowe actually ranks number 2 in the state of Vermont in terms of capacity for putting the least amount of skiers on its acreage of terrain.

 

[Lostone]

I am one of those afore mentioned bushies, but I won't argue we don't have great top to bottom runs, if you are alergic to flats or traverses. I do top to bottom, non-stops almost every time I'm there, but I do go across the traverse, do the runout on Lower Downspout, or Straight Shot, or at least take the switchback trail, Jester.

For me, I love doing Jester to the bottom, or mix it up on the bottom part with... almost anything. Murphy's? Lower Birdland? Lower Organgrinder? Acros the traverse and take Stein's? The Mall? Twist? Moonshine?

And at North, FIS to Rim Run, across the flat and run down Tumbler? Cliffs? Then there is the flat Straight Shot on the bottom, so as a top to bottom? I'd rather jump on Northridge. :grin:

I would also agree with the idea that we have pods. But they are great pods! And they're not the same trail! Where Stowe has some good, fast highways (And I have to think that 1500' number is wrong. That is less than all but North Lynx and Inverness, here.) but Sugarbush has a great diversity of trails.


So I would agree that if going top to bottom at one speed is your thing, Sugarbush might not be your thing. But don't tell me we don't have great terrain! :smash:

Many people come here for the terrain. And many more come back because of the terrain!

 

[freeheelwilly]

Whiteface (there's a surprise, huh?):

Paron's Run to turn 1 on Excelsior to lower Essex to Lower Northway to On Ramp to either High Country Glades (if open) or Lower Mac (if not) to Lower Valley to Burtons to Lower Thruway to Tom Cat to Draper's Drop to Lower Valley.

That's a friggin' SHOT! 3200' of fun that'll make your legs shake!

Edited to add:

Stowe rocks and so does Sugarbush. Why do people dis Stowe? And the apres is fantastic.

 

[JPTracker]

Originally Posted by riverc0il
jay peak's run out for example KILLS me, despite it having some ballsy tree shots on the way down from any side of the peak. so that is just my perspective, flat run outs suck, i hate them, i despise them, and that is the basis of my opinion.

Originally Posted by awf170
Yeah, it is brutal. It is tiring, boring, and waste a bunch of time. I haven't even done BP or BBP the last 3 days I have been there because of that brutal run out. Thats why the Jet area is the best IMO.

I disagree on the runouts being brutal. The bottom section of Ulers, since they put in Kokomo is not that bad. At the most it take a minute, two max, of coasting, with no effort to get back to the lift. There is usually not even any beginner traffic to avoid. One of my favorite runs is to take the Flyer to Northway, JFK, Ulers, Kokomo and back to the Flyer.

The only runout I don’t like is coming across Taxi to Goat to Queens Highway. That run is a lot of cruising, usually bad conditions and also a lot of beginner traffic to avoid.

 

[awf170]

I disagree on the runouts being brutal. The bottom section of Ulers, since they put in Kokomo is not that bad. At the most it take a minute, two max, of coasting, with no effort to get back to the lift. There is usually not even any beginner traffic to avoid. One of my favorite runs is to take the Flyer to Northway, JFK, Ulers, Kokomo and back to the Flyer.

The runout from BP/BPP is almost 2 miles. So are you trying to say that you you average about 100mph on that runout...

Lets say the runout is 1.5 miles, even though it is probably more. Than lets say you average 20 mph, and I doubt that you even go that fast because it isn't steep enough. Thats 4:30 for the fastest possible time. I would say more like 6-10 minutes without tucking or anything.

 

[JPTracker]

The runout from BP/BPP is almost 2 miles. So are you trying to say that you you average about 100mph on that runout...

Lets say the runout is 1.5 miles, even though it is probably more. Than lets say you average 20 mph, and I doubt that you even go that fast because it isn't steep enough. Thats 4:30 for the fastest possible time. I would say more like 6-10 minutes without tucking or anything.

I measure the runout to be about 3/4 miles. I have never actually clocked the runout, the time is what it feels like to me. However, when I make the run down JFK I can easly beet my chair on the Freezer back down. I know the Freezer is a seven minute trip up so my entire run is less then that. The big problem on the runout is if you come out of BBP on the cross country trail, thenyou have no speed going into Kokomo and it may take ten minutes then.

 

[riverc0il]

I know the Freezer is a seven minute trip up so my entire run is less then that.

i don't doubt you can beat your chair back down on the groomers, but more than half of that seven minutes is on the flats if you take ullrs or kokomo, which is only slightly less flat than ullr's, just cuts off some milage. it is one of the longest non-traverse run outs in new england that i have ever experienced. perhaps you find them tolerable, but it is hard to argue that the that side of the mountain's run out is amongst the longest around that is not intended to be a cross mountain trail (a la kansas and three mile trail at SR). also, queens highway is rediculously boring, but at least it has some pitch so you can at least get some speed up. even the flats heading back to the bon quad are boring, but again you can at least get up some steam and carve some nice arcs to pass the time. i have no use for those run outs.

 

[AHM]

Hpd......

Not discouraged and I clearly put a wink in. UR right I believe this place is full of Bushies and that's ok. I beliveve TinWoody and the all knowing AHM have pointed out on other threads that this for some reason frustrates me. It's just that there are other good places, blah, blah, blah, blah, no one wants to hear this rant again.

Thanks for the "compliment". Do not think it frustrates you at all. Think most of these boards have a small dedicated few who post often and are passionate. I actually could care less who likes what hills, trails, etc. Most are pretty vocal about their local hills--goes with the passion. Do I like the bush, sure, are there other great hills in the east, sure, and I frequent them more than you might realize. I think if you know them all pretty well, you'll find that there are a certain few that most feel are the best.

As for Canada and Europe, I feel most probably don't have the same degree of experience skiing there, so that is a perspective I try and provide. Same goes for backcountry skiing and avalanche terrain. There's a whole lot of sweat, heart, and sole, that goes into the sport and so I try and provide an "informed" position. I think if you decide to take me up on a day of skiing, you'll leave with a pretty big smile on your face, some terrain that you never knew existed, and a great ski day. AHM

 

[AHM]

Don't think ya know what you are talkin' about

perhaps i am misinterpreting the words "top to bottom," but i was thinking from the top of the ski area back to the base lodge. i also would put sugarloaf as a suspect top to bottom mountain as well. that is saying nothing bad about those mountains!!! in a matter of fact, despite enjoying great top to bottom ski areas, i find most of my favorite terrain is not top to bottom (my favorite examples are zoomer @ cannon and jet @ jay). i just don't look at bush as a top to bottom mountain. you ride heaven's gate, lynx, rock, summit quad, etc. and ski those areas. great top to bottom mountains are places like mrg, wildcat, stowe, cannon, etc. that you can cycle the summit and go top to bottom on the lift and ski back down great terrain with sustained pitches and no run outs. it is my opinion that a flat run out is a serious minus on any top to bottom run. jay peak's run out for example KILLS me, despite it having some ballsy tree shots on the way down from any side of the peak. so that is just my perspective, flat run outs suck, i hate them, i despise them, and that is the basis of my opinion.

Steve: Don't think you know how to ski most of the hills you talk about. If the bush doesn't ski top to bottom, then well either does La Grave (and if you know hard core hills, La Grave is the hard core of hard core, bottom line. If you have skied there, then you know. Doubt you think a toppy glacier, Patou, Freaux is not top to bottom--don't actually expect you to know what I am talking about, expect you as a pretty hard core skier based on your posts, to recognize that there are some hills you are not familiar with). Top to bottom means that the terrain can rock top to bottom. So, for Jay: Jet top to bottom pretty much is easy terrain. Plain and simple, not steep, not long, not challenging. Best Jay skiing top to bottom is either out back, as in a 242 exit, or it can easily be everglade. It is a great top to bottom run. Blows Steamboats shadows away. Blows so much away, and that is a small part of Jay. What makes top to bottom is the concept of non stop. Once it goes non-stop, then things change. Yep, the bottom is a run out, yep if you ski it fast, and the top fast (ie non stop) then all of a sudden the bottom can be pretty fun. Think that you would find your legs pretty cooked if we skied a bunch of top to bottom at the bush. Don't think you are very familiar with the area based on your posts. Still think, top to bottom OG is a pretty good run. Top to bottom defined as high speed GS and getting it all done in about 3 min. Think the same holds true for black diamond, three sisters run at the bush, or BD, FIS to the bottom, non stop. Think the same holds true for a battel and feel that actually bravo/bear den/tumbler-hammerhead, will find your lungs doing a bit of breathing. You may concentrate on a single lift. That's great. For me, I like skiing the whole hill and the bush skis pretty much like 2500 plus verts if you know the hill and ski it non stop. Top to bottom means just that, so is MRG good top to bottom yeah, sure. But does it all ski like paradise, Octopus garden, 20th hole, no, but it all skis pretty well. Really, if you want top to bottom at Stowe, that is pretty much chin, to say hellbrook, don't think Jet at Jay is close to that. Think that top to bottom means if you ski it hard, then you'll find that your legs feel the "burn" at the bottom. Think a variety of places in the east can give you the burn......................So, since you have moved "close" by your definition, so you can ski as much as possible that you should expand the horizons and ski beyond the east, ski the whole world, it's really quite top to bottom once you get done with the idea of those "pesky" flats, like those pesky flats that are the sherburne, or the gulf of slides, or the cat road out of fish at Fernie to haul back, or the hitch back to La Grave from Freaux. Pumped to see your response to this one.....................and "all knowing HPD" as well. AHM............................

 

[riverc0il]

AHM, glad you are 'pumped' to see my response on this one. i already conceeded the point that when i talk about "top to bottom," i am judging differently than most folks here. my opinion of what makes a great "top to bottom" run doesn't seem to match up with many posters, including your own. also, you mentioned a lot of side country in your post, such as jay 242 or whatever. and backcountry like GoS and Sherbie. that is off topic, in my opinion. i think we need to keep top to bottom in reference to boundary to boundary skiing. great "top to bottom" skiing doesn't involve skiing down to a saddle and busting out the skins nor getting in a car to get back to the base lodge. as per my specifications above, i judge top to bottom as top of the mountain back to the lodge, anything else is just sectional skiing. that is how i framed my responses. i am not saying people have to use my definition, i just clarified where i am coming from, so you can read my posts with that in mind.

in reference to jet at jay, i never said that was top to bottom. in a matter of fact, i cited it out as an example of a non-top to bottom lift that i prefer. based on your post, i'll assume you know i appreciate that chair not for what is on the map. everglade at jay? sure it is an awesome run. top to bottom run? not even close. it doesn't go off the summit and ends at kokomo/ullrs, yuck! this is exactly my point... many mountains have great individual trails within the mountain, awesome stuff. but the really awesome stuff isn't awesome top to bottom. everglade at jay isn't top to bottom by a long shot. cycling the freezer, it is a great run followed by a long boring run out. the run out is more than acceptable for access to a great glade! but it is not an over all excellent top to bottom run.

"feeling a burn" doesn't factor into my definition of great top to bottom runs. i can feel the burn any where. i can crank hard GS turns top to bottom at any mountain and feel the burn. drop into a glade and go non-stop through the run out or what ever. feeling the burn is part of the problem with run outs, you wouldn't feel the burn if the run out wasn't there.

and fine, rub my nose in the fact that i don't have the money to travel to europe or the west to ski. i spend on an entire season what many spend on one weekend trip out west. i'll "expand my horizons" once i have enough money to do it, don't think i only ski the east for lack of desire to ski else where.

do i not know certain mountains that well? you bet! i have only skied bush three times in my life and only started skiing jay once i moved up here, no more than a dozen times so far. but that has nothing to do with my opinion of what good top to bottom is all about. by no means does how i qualify good top to bottom diminish the great terrain that many mountains have in sections. and by no means do i not spend a good amount of time on areas that i don't consider great top to bottom runs but think are some of the best terrain in the world. i'll traverse a mile (read run out) for a great run. it won't be a good top to bottom run, but it'll be one heck of a run. so if you want to discuss this point, realize you have to first acknowledge we are speaking two different languages, looking through two different sets of glasses, looking at the world from two different points of view, perspectives. it doesn't mean either of us are more right than the other, it just means we place different values on different aspects of skiing. and there is nothing wrong with that, i appreciate the difference in perspective, or else i wouldn't post here.

 

[AHM]

AHM,
and fine, rub my nose in the fact that i don't have the money to travel to europe or the west to ski. i spend on an entire season what many spend on one weekend trip out west. i'll "expand my horizons" once i have enough money to do it, don't think i only ski the east for lack of desire to ski else where.

Steve: Not rubbing your nose in it at all. I am a king of skiing cheap. I also spend a ton of my take home on skiing (the addiction), more than most would consider "smart". When I moved back east, I could only afford to ski the east and did just that for 5 straight seasons. Then I started to hit interior BC hard. It is the home of steep, deep, and cheap. I often discuss in here how to road trip interior bc on the cheap with 3 friends and one SUV (in a pinch it can be slept in and this has been done). This is the best value based vacation out there and there will be very very few tourists.

Sorry to bust on ya so hard..............could be frustrated with the heat wave and the fact that last years snow came this summer as rain and turned my area into a FEMA disaster area, with some roads still not open and my MTB trails a muddy mess.

In ref to the best areas, was only considering the lift and using the lift to get to some of these areas. I'll check out Saddle back at some point. Enjoy the season, you certainly seem like a hard core skier and few ever chuck it to live near the hill, so great job there.AHM

 

[dmc]

At Hunter - It's

The Cliff to Racers Edge...
or
Hellgate>Crossover>Kennedy>Eisenhower
or
Claires>Taylors>Lower 44

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

My response is

"all knowing HPD"

I like the sound of that. I am very wise. As far as the rest of your post goes I kinda scanned it, but couldn't bring myself to actually read it.

 

[riverc0il]

Sorry to bust on ya so hard..............could be frustrated with the heat wave and the fact that last years snow came this summer as rain and turned my area into a FEMA disaster area, with some roads still not open and my MTB trails a muddy mess.

word, i think we are all frustrated due to the heat wave. everyone gets a little testy a few months into the off season, myself included. sorry to hear your area got hit hard. i got think skin and can take a little busting, probably deserve it now and again any ways

 

[ajl50]

I'll add one to this list and I'm glad it's been brought back.
Whiteface-
Upper skward, cross over on switchback right into cloudspin, then take cloudspin through lower cloudspin, right into upper valley, pass boule's bisto, run down burtons to thuway and over to drapers and then finish with drapers to lower valley. Lots of great drops and a full on sweat by the end.
Also - just as fun, Parons to northway, to on ramp (when open) to Mackenzie to lower valley.

 

[the dude]

peak to creek at whistler. over 4 miles long.

 

[Newpylong]

Peak to Creek or Murray Downhill, TOUGH to beat that for vertical in one run.....