High Priced Lift Tickets

[4aprice]

Written from an "not retired yet but empty nest" perspective, we love the multi-mountain passes. I have 3 different season passes, for the places I will ski this season, Ikon is just one of them. I usually get 18 to 20 days on my Ikon per season mostly out west but a couple in New England (will add to NE total if April is good) and that's between 10 or so areas. BIL has place in Cottonwood Heights and my son lives in Colorado, They buy an Ikon, we can all ski together, it's great. It is an invaluable travel tool for us.

I still keep a local seasons pass here in the Pocono's and that's where I do most of my skiing. The mountain I ski is actually is "run" by KSL, who also "runs" (hesitant to use word own) nearby Blue Mt. Everyone was sure they were Ikon targets but they haven't jumped on board and I don't think they will. Don't think they need to. Even this morning they were piling em in there even with paid parking. It's mid season, its race, development programs, its busy. I don't pay strict attention but the Kiosks for tickets seemed pretty busy to me. I think they want people to buy them on-line (no walk up) before coming to the mountain anyways, so like has been said planning is key. I'm lucky enough to get many weekday mornings there before work so the pass (and locker which isn't cheap either) are worth it for me.

Hope to spend my winters in the future (aka retirement) out in the west touring around and hitting all sorts of places. I grew up here in the northeast and really have gotten to ski most of the areas between the Pocono's and the White Mountains of NH (Maine is too far, off my radar) and really enjoyed it now its time explore the west and that's where we invested. So I always hope there is some sort of multi area passes. I have never had an Epic but some season I might buy one to hit the Vail areas. I actually like the fact that its all paid for up front.

Have heard the stories, and seen some of the pictures but never really run into the horrific crowds myself. I have sat in traffic in the canyons and battled I-70 out of the Denver metro but its not too bothersome to me. (BTW have also battled traffic on the NYST heading to NNE) Any weekend between Christmas and at least Presidents Day weekend is subject to crowding IMO. We not tied to any school schedules and do most of our travels at off times. (March, April). We have had some great trips planning around our Ikon passes in Colorado and Utah and will be doing it again the last 2 weeks in March this year. So for us and our situation, the passes are great.

 

[joshua segal]

...
Cheap passes have resulted in over crowding of the major areas and there's just no such thing as a premium product anymore for the most part. I'd rather a place like Stowe charge a premium for a pass and generate the same revenue off fewer people.

...

While I agree that "Cheap passes have resulted in overcrowding of the major areas", the corporation is an entity designed to make money for their stockholders. Clearly, people are buying these passes in huge numbers, so the corporations have no incentive to change.

I don't know about you all - but I bring my own food. I'm not willing to pay $15 for a burger that is not as good as McDonald's!

 

[Kingslug20]

My limit is the 12.00 bowl of chili...

 

[raisingarizona]

Snowbowl hit 309 yesterday

 

[Smellytele]

My limit is the 12.00 bowl of chili...

Had another day of barbeque in the parking lot today. Refuse to buy chicken strips and FF or a shitty ass burger or a $12 beer.

 

[thetrailboss]

Wonder if smaller places like bolton are doing better as some people simply don't like the epic ikon weekend shit show..
I'm thinking of bolton tomorrow rather than another shitshow day..

How was it?

I always wanted to like Bolton but it never really was my thing.

 

[abc]

I see the greatest frustration from this pricing model coming from people who want to ski these areas, but are neither willing to buy the pass nor pay the price of the day ticket.

I just don’t get it!

If these people really want to ski these areas, they can buy the n-day “pass” product!

Are these the same people who “can’t afford” to buy their plane ticket for Christmas travel a few days before Christmas?

They can either “afford” to suck it up and pay for the last minute prices. Or they can stay home!

But, if they just want to SKI, but not ski some famous fashionable mountain, they still have some options to choose from. Many newbies or resort hoppers too, can still go for the independent mountains, which will be “more affordable”.

However, in some market, that option is becoming difficult because Vail had gobble up almost all the mountains. I see THAT as a big problem. I mean, monopoly is a problem. But no, I don’t see the high day ticket alone as “the” problem, not when there’re many other ways to avoid paying such high costs.

 

[hrstrat57]

Support the independent areas. Skip the mega resorts.

 

[Kingslug20]

How was it?

I always wanted to like Bolton but it never really was my thing.

Awesome!...everything open..good conditions...relatively cheap food and beer...
My new go to local place..39 bucks on mondays..and night skiing.

 

[thetrailboss]

As we approach $300 for a day ticket, I remember when ski areas broke the $10 a day ceiling and the skiing magazines were asking the question, "Who would pay such a crazy amount?"

Remember: The mega-areas have a wealthy clientele who routinely tip their instructor $50 or more and will hire an instructor for the day - not to be taught, but to jump the lift-line.

While the average skier of moderate means may see high prices as an outrage, the big ski areas still feature long lift lines clearly showing a balance between supply and demand.

The multi-area season passes are a business-model choice. If the money is in the bank before the start of the season, the corporation insulates itself against a potentially bad season.

We've seen failed business models in the industry before:
- Private club models have generally failed: Windham, Haystack, Round Top (VT), etc.
- ASC, Ascutney, etc. over-extended
- A number of smaller areas failed due to under-capitalization or lack of a reliable water-supply.:
- A number of larger areas failed due to mismanagement: Magic, Ascutney, etc.

The Epic/Icon/Indy model may fail, but I see the greatest frustration from this pricing model coming from people who want to ski these areas, but are neither willing to buy the pass nor pay the price of the day ticket.

Your thoughts?

I guess there are two ways to discuss this. One is the "prices are increasing and it sucks" thread. I remember when Burke was $22 a day all season and some thought that was high. So yeah, as time goes, prices go up. It just happens.

The second view is what is really happening and that is the ski industry pushing people into pass products. Setting a very high window rate is designed to do that. We've talked about that a lot. As folks have said, this has really hurt the 3-5 day a season skier because these folks are not going to spring for a pass. It also really hurts beginners and folks who are not in the sport. What has surprised me is how Alterra and Vail have just ignored this market and focused on the season pass and only the season pass product.

As to the "business model" discussion, I think on the surface one can compare ASC to Ascutney as being similar due to over-leveraging. But there's a lot more going on with both of those cases than just being over-leveraged. ASC was hit by terrible weather and the stress of being on Wall Street. The last Ascutney regime, in my view, failed in large part due to the owner's ego in addition to mismanagement.

I don't recall Windham being a private club. When was that?

 

[abc]

the ski industry pushing people into pass products. Setting a very high window rate is designed to do that.

Vail and Alterra are doing that. Are they “the ski industry”?

 

[cdskier]

I don't recall Windham being a private club. When was that?

I didn't know that either. I just looked it up. Apparently it was in the 60s and 70s (so before my time!). Found some fairly decent history here: https://windhammountainhoa.com/about/

 

[thetrailboss]

Vail and Alterra are doing that. Are they “the ski industry”?

Good point. I think they control most of the market.

FWIW Snowbird, Alta, are also following this model too.

 

[machski]

Good point. I think they control most of the market.

FWIW Snowbird, Alta, are also following this model too.

The model has shifted to that as pass sales = known revenue streams. Day ticket sales do not do that year over year as a bad winter = drastically reduced day ticket revenues. Hard to run a business like that and invest to improve/modernize. The smaller areas still basing on lower cost day tickets (I'll use Mt. Abram since we just were there) are effective at drawing folks and manage to upgrade their Snowmaking a fair amount (was actually surprised how much modern in place gear Abram had). That said, the lifts are straight out of 1970 and unlikely to be upgraded with their revenue model (winter anyway). Now, with their MTB operations in the summer, that could help offset the low ski ticket prices to eventually upgrade their aging lifts.

 

[joshua segal]

...
I don't recall Windham being a private club. When was that?

Late 1960s through early 70s.

 

[joshua segal]

Support the independent areas. Skip the mega resorts.

Do any of you see a parallel with Walmart vs. the momma/papa store on Main Street? Everybody seems to hate Walmart for what they do - and complain a lot. But when push comes to shove, most people actually shop there as evidenced by their sales figures.

 

[drjeff]

Had another day of barbeque in the parking lot today. Refuse to buy chicken strips and FF or a shitty ass burger or a $12 beer.

Crazy amount of chicken fingers sold at Mount Snow on Saturday! I was in the Carinthia Lodge about 2:45 getting a late lunch (I will totally admit that I enjoy their grilled chicken, bacon, ranch sandwich) and I overheard one of the F&B crew saying that today had already a new 1 day record, for the amount of Chicken Fingers they had sold, at 310lbs (the previous record he said was 280lbs) and they were still doing a brisk business when I was there!

Guessing host a USASA Freestyle competition on Gulch with about 120 teenagers helped a bit with that quantity!

And that was just the Carinthia Lodge, not all of their F&B operations!

 

[abc]

Good point. I think they control most of the market.

FWIW Snowbird, Alta, are also following this model too.

Vail+Alterra control quite many mountains. But far from “most”.

 

[thetrailboss]

Vail+Alterra control quite many mountains. But far from “most”.

But what about market share? Not # of mountains.

 

[abc]

The model has shifted to that as pass sales = known revenue streams. Day ticket sales do not do that year over year as a bad winter = drastically reduced day ticket revenues. Hard to run a business like that and invest to improve/modernize. The smaller areas still basing on lower cost day tickets (I'll use Mt. Abram since we just were there) are effective at drawing folks and manage to upgrade their Snowmaking a fair amount (was actually surprised how much modern in place gear Abram had). That said, the lifts are straight out of 1970 and unlikely to be upgraded with their revenue model (winter anyway). Now, with their MTB operations in the summer, that could help offset the low ski ticket prices to eventually upgrade their aging lifts.

From a strictly business point of view, it’s far better to sell pass (advance, guaranteed) than selling tickets. Just about any business will kill to get advance purchase over random daily sales.

It’s even more so in a weather dependent industry such as ski industry. So I can’t fault Vail/Alterra for their practice, which is straight out of MBA text book.

Is that bad for the skiers, and the industry? That’s a different matter.

The way I see it, with the climate warming, snow fall numbers fluctuate more and more wildly, there’s no avoiding the need to capture advance pass purchase to provide some financial cushioning. So, like it or not, that’s probably how the industry will be moving.