High Priced Lift Tickets

[deadheadskier]

I agree that they are killing off future customers and not looking at the long run. I also think that current crowds will subside a bit as people get back into other activities post Covid. (i.e. Weddings, birthday parties, kids other winter sports, etc.)
Publicly traded companies only care about the next quarterly results. That's what the managers with the big salaries are measured on and what their bonuses are bases on. They worry about what the shareholders think, not the customer. They want to squeeze as much $ out of you as they can with giving as little in return as they have to. Why would you expect anything else from them?

Hence why having a ski resort be publicly traded sucks. Sure stocks help raise capital for fancy new toys, but the model restricts local operators budget to use them.

It's pretty darn frustrating to see Rob Katz, just one person, amass a net worth an order of magnitude more valuable than what you could sell many Vail properties for; all while encouraging a corporate directive to operate many properties on an austerity budget.

Worst guy to ever get involved in the industry

 

[Domeskier]

Hence why having a ski resort be publicly traded sucks. Sure stocks help raise capital for fancy new toys, but the model restricts local operators budget to use them.

I think it has more to do with the size of the business than whether it's public or private. I'm skeptical Vail would be run any differently if ownership were consolidated in a handful of owners with limited regulatory oversight trying to maximize their ROR, appease lenders, or prepare for an exit event. Some CEO running the show out of Boulder whose net worth is tied up in illiquid stock in an international skiing conglomerate is probably not making decisions based on the long-term best interests of some feeder hills in Southern Pennsylvania. Granted, it's much easier to create an international skiing conglomerate if you have access to public markets, but I doubt many of the concerns people are raising here would be addressed in Boulder even if Vail went dark.

 

[NYDB]

my son's school outing club is doing a ski trip to stowe. had to hold my nose and buy him a 2 day epic pass. I hate giving that company any money but had to. F vail.

 

[raisingarizona]

They don’t care about you

 

[joshua segal]

As I stated in the opening of this thread, "The Epic/Icon/Indy model may fail, but I see the greatest frustration from this pricing model coming from people who want to ski these areas, but are neither willing to buy the pass nor pay the price of the day ticket."

It's interesting to note that the hostility against Vail seems to exceed rational thought. As I suggested in the opening posting on this thread, it's industry-wide: not just Vail.

As to whether or not Vail areas are promoting the creation of a next generation of skiers: Some are, some aren't.

Speaking only for Crotched Mountain (a Vail property), we have hundreds of kids in the after-school programs as well as hundreds of kids in the various weekend programs that include racing, free-style and just recreational skiing/riding.

The industry problem is not caused by the "big boys". It is caused by the disappearance of the so-called "feeder areas". Over 600 such areas are documented in http://nelsap.org and http://skikabbalah.com/lostNY/ documents over 400 such areas just in NYS.

 

[Smellytele]

As I stated in the opening of this thread, "The Epic/Icon/Indy model may fail, but I see the greatest frustration from this pricing model coming from people who want to ski these areas, but are neither willing to buy the pass nor pay the price of the day ticket."

It's interesting to note that the hostility against Vail seems to exceed rational thought. As I suggested in the opening posting on this thread, it's industry-wide: not just Vail.

As to whether or not Vail areas are promoting the creation of a next generation of skiers: Some are, some aren't.

Speaking only for Crotched Mountain (a Vail property), we have hundreds of kids in the after-school programs as well as hundreds of kids in the various weekend programs that include racing, free-style and just recreational skiing/riding.

The industry problem is not caused by the "big boys". It is caused by the disappearance of the so-called "feeder areas". Over 600 such areas are documented in http://nelsap.org and http://skikabbalah.com/lostNY/ documents over 400 such areas just in NYS.

For the after school programs how much are they at the Crotch?

And how do you lump Indy in with Epic and Ikon? They own nothing and have no say what so ever how any ski area is run.

 

[deadheadskier]

As I stated in the opening of this thread, "The Epic/Icon/Indy model may fail, but I see the greatest frustration from this pricing model coming from people who want to ski these areas, but are neither willing to buy the pass nor pay the price of the day ticket."

It's interesting to note that the hostility against Vail seems to exceed rational thought. As I suggested in the opening posting on this thread, it's industry-wide: not just Vail.

As to whether or not Vail areas are promoting the creation of a next generation of skiers: Some are, some aren't.

Speaking only for Crotched Mountain (a Vail property), we have hundreds of kids in the after-school programs as well as hundreds of kids in the various weekend programs that include racing, free-style and just recreational skiing/riding.

The industry problem is not caused by the "big boys". It is caused by the disappearance of the so-called "feeder areas". Over 600 such areas are documented in http://nelsap.org and http://skikabbalah.com/lostNY/ documents over 400 such areas just in NYS.

I know for me personally, what I'm seeing Vail do more of than those on iKon or Indy here in the East is operating their properties on much tighter budgets than past ownership; meaning less aggressive snowmaking, fewer lifts running, shorter seasons, inferior quality F&B etc.

The operations at iKon properties haven't dropped off nearly as precipitously.

Indy doesn't even belong in the same conversation as Smelly points out.

 

[joshua segal]

I know for me personally, what I'm seeing Vail do more of than those on iKon or Indy here in the East is operating their properties on much tighter budgets than past ownership; meaning less aggressive snowmaking, fewer lifts running, shorter seasons, inferior quality F&B etc.

The operations at iKon properties haven't dropped off nearly as precipitously.

Indy doesn't even belong in the same conversation as Smelly points out.

As I have said before: There are multiple issues in play:
1. Vail's entry into the Eastern market has had a learning curve that was confused by COVID.
2. I can only speak for Crotched Mountain, but I can tell you there has been no skimping on snowmaking here this season. Peak would never pump when temps were above wet bulb. Under Vail, if there is even a marginal opportunity to make snow, the guns have been on. Not surprising, that CM was the first in NH to be 100% open.
3. All New England Vail properties are running on very close to the same schedules that they ran under Peak Resorts. The last seasons featured late openings due to warm Decembers.
4. There was a huge personnel problem staffing lift ops in the 2021-2 season which resulted in challenged lift ops.
5. When you are about to sell a property, you allow deferred maintenance issues to build up. I suspect that accounts for many of the problems at Wildcat and Attitash.

Living on the mountain, I go home for lunch so I can't comment on F & B.

You and Smelly were correct in pointing out that Indy is in a different category. I mentioned them because the original thread was about group passes and Indy was still a group pass which was part of the marketing scheme of the independents. It has its parallel with IGA that formed 100 years ago in response to the growth of supermarket chains such as A & P.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Other than killing the night program, which actually Peaks did, Vail has been running things largely the same here in Southcentral PA. Snowmaking has been as aggressive as ever, including numerous nights in the last week where they've had marginal production only on the upper 1/3 of the mountain for maybe 4-5 hours.

DHS's stance is clouded by how things have unfolded in NH. I'm not saying its not a correct stance, but to say they are operating on tighter budgets everywhere in the east just isn't true. As much as the haters don't want to admit it Joshua hit it on the head with Covid messing up the learning curve. Could they have done better, yes, but no one knew what we were getting into. The staffing is also something they've clearly figured out by raising the rate. that's never an issue down here because there are copious high school aged kids in the area willing to work here.

Adding in 20+ resorts, much of which were of the feeder hill or "ski area" variety was not something a corporate behemoth like Vail who primarily dealt with destination resorts could easily due. that is a bigger discussion on corporate owned ski companies and their flaws though.

Back on point now, I couldn't believe that a walk up ticket on a Saturday at Roundtop was $94. Buying my son a $57 buddy ticket seemed like highway robbery...

 

[deadheadskier]

As I have said before: There are multiple issues in play:
1. Vail's entry into the Eastern market has had a learning curve that was confused by COVID.
2. I can only speak for Crotched Mountain, but I can tell you there has been no skimping on snowmaking here this season. Peak would never pump when temps were above wet bulb. Under Vail, if there is even a marginal opportunity to make snow, the guns have been on. Not surprising, that CM was the first in NH to be 100% open.
3. All New England Vail properties are running on very close to the same schedules that they ran under Peak Resorts. The last seasons featured late openings due to warm Decembers.
4. There was a huge personnel problem staffing lift ops in the 2021-2 season which resulted in challenged lift ops.
5. When you are about to sell a property, you allow deferred maintenance issues to build up. I suspect that accounts for many of the problems at Wildcat and Attitash.

Living on the mountain, I go home for lunch so I can't comment on F & B.

You and Smelly were correct in pointing out that Indy is in a different category. I mentioned them because the original thread was about group passes and Indy was still a group pass which was part of the marketing scheme of the independents. It has its parallel with IGA that formed 100 years ago in response to the growth of supermarket chains such as A & P.

I would say your glasses are rose colored due to loyalty to your employer.

You provide some caveats in that your opinion is mainly Crotched focused, but your observations of elsewhere are purely subjective and quite frankly, dishonest in many ways.

Speaking of NH; Attitash, Wildcat and especially Sunapee make less snow than under Peak. They all run lifts less frequently too. The contrast of operations now at Sunapee especially compared to the Mueller's ownership is vastly inferior.

Wildcat and Sunapee have 2-4 week shorter seasons. Both got chopped on both ends.

Not one of my many dozen friends and acquaintances in Stowe are happy with Vail compared to prior ownership.

Hunter skiers also pissed based on comments here.

Okemo and Mt Snow I pay little attention to. Though my personal experience with Mt Snow this winter is they completely choked by cancelling the Masters camp. My little Gunstock could have held the camp easily.

The skier visit numbers will remain up though at Vail properties. Not because of great performance, but because the pass is so cheap and they've built out a portfolio of borderline geographic monopolies. They know this, and they have most of the money they need before the first snowflakes fall, so they have little incentive to perform.

The reason you see far more anger directed at Vail vs iKon is because the iKon resorts are run objectively better than Vail; especially the Boyne properties here in the East.

 

[AdironRider]

The truth is this entire thread is predicated on people bitching they can’t ski on a Saturday for the same price as a Monday, and to a lesser extent bitching that the Monday offerings (notably lifts operating) aren't the same as a Saturday.

I'm going to outright say it, Attitash and Wildcat have never been able to go toe to toe with other major ski resorts. They are always the screw up younger brother, and that extends all the way including Peak's tenure, as well as before. There is a reason Peak was able to buy Wildcat for peanuts.

DHS conveniently leaves out that Stowe used to cost significantly more for a seasons pass, and also is complaining about Mt Snow cancelling a ski race when literally every other event was being cancelled across the Northeast, while it was pissing rain and every mountain was down to bare grass on all but a handful of trails. Old men yelling at clouds.

Why do you think Vail became the big dog in the first place. Hint, it wasn't because they run a shitty ski resort. The vast majority of customers like the product. Jaded locals like us don't because they don't like to share.

If I am to be further frank, this whole "woe be the beginner" argument is a thinly veiled cover for jaded locals being pissed. Ive been around ski towns long enough now to know that is like the sun rising in the East every morning. In almost every metric, skiing is on the upswing in participation, with 7 of the top 10 years in terms of visitation and overall participation occurring over the last decade.

 

[deadheadskier]

Lol

You still have a hardon for me after all these years Adironrider.

So much misrepresentation of my opinions expressed, it's downright disingenuous and not worth my time challenging your BS.

But you keep flexing buddy

 

[AdironRider]

Was a season pass at Stowe not significantly more expensive pre Vail? What did Wildcat get sold to Peak for and why? Did you not literally complain about Mt Snow not closing one of three routes down for your exclusive use literally like 2 weeks ago?

I've bitched about Ikon ruining Jackson myself, but I can at least admit they run a decent business. I didn't like skier visits doubling over the span of 2 years for my own selfish reasons. Quit faking some high road like you are concerned for the beginner. The fact of the matter is the industry has realized jaded locals don't pay the bills, and sees you and your complaining as a liability and wants you gone. The proof is in the pudding and Vail visits are UP.

 

[deadheadskier]

If you're gonna troll old buddy, try for originality. Much more effective

 

[AdironRider]

I'm not trolling, just calling you out.

 

[deadheadskier]

Lol, suuuuurrreee

Appreciate the love. It's amusing for sure

 

[abc]

High day ticket price isn’t just Vail.

Was it “because” of Vail? I‘d say with a qualified “yes”. The truth is, it’s better for the mountain. 1) the mountain gets the money up front; 2) off load the weather dependency to the customer. Rob Katz may have stumbled upon that formula first. But once it’s demonstrated to work to the mountain‘s advantage, others will surely follow suit.

Can you turn back the clock and wish it was never tried, by Vail or by another other operator? You can wish but it aren’t going to happen.

The reason for the enormous amount of bitching against Vail ON THIS BOARD, has to do with the few mountains Vail totally screwed up. Wildcat, Attitush that I know of first hand. And Stowe and Hunter for a different reason. The latter basically the cheap passes made it unsustainably too crowded.

With the Cat and Attitush, it’s quite clear it’s down to the one-size-fit-all centralized operator running from Colorado. That is the best/worst example you can have for large corporation running “nationwide” operations as though the country is a uniform block. But I don’t have any skin in the game any more. I don’t have a Epic pass. I don’t have a house near a Vail property. I‘m free to go to other mountains if I so choose. (This year, I’m on IKON. Planning NOT to buy a pass next year and exclusively cross country ski, possibly enter a ski marathon race or two)

 

[thetrailboss]

Cash grass or ... Nobody rides for free

"You didn't say my favorite one, ASS!"

Signed,
Creepy Rob Katz

 

[thetrailboss]

It's interesting to note that the hostility against Vail seems to exceed rational thought. As I suggested in the opening posting on this thread, it's industry-wide: not just Vail.

The response is purely emotional because most of the folks in here are quite passionate about the sport. Vail is the biggest player and the one that arguably has had the most impact on the industry in the last decade.

The industry problem is not caused by the "big boys". It is caused by the disappearance of the so-called "feeder areas". Over 600 such areas are documented in http://nelsap.org and http://skikabbalah.com/lostNY/ documents over 400 such areas just in NYS.

Hold on--the "big boys" are either buying or putting a lot of areas out of business. Plus, saying that 400/600 areas have disappeared is misleading because that is looking at almost 90 years of history. A lot disappeared during the oil embargo years of the 1970's and more after personal injury cases were successful and insurance rates went up.

But yes, we do need feeder hills. That's not in dispute.

 

[thetrailboss]

High day ticket price isn’t just Vail.

Was it “because” of Vail? I‘d say with a qualified “yes”. The truth is, it’s better for the mountain. 1) the mountain gets the money up front; 2) off load the weather dependency to the customer. Rob Katz may have stumbled upon that formula first. But once it’s demonstrated to work to the mountain‘s advantage, others will surely follow suit.

I agree. They figured it out pretty quickly. Admittedly, we can look back to ASC's final years to see hints of the focus being on pass sales vs. day tickets.

Can you turn back the clock and wish it was never tried, by Vail or by another other operator? You can wish but it aren’t going to happen.

I think the evolution was inevitable.

The reason for the enormous amount of bitching against Vail ON THIS BOARD, has to do with the few mountains Vail totally screwed up. Wildcat, Attitush that I know of first hand. And Stowe and Hunter for a different reason. The latter basically the cheap passes made it unsustainably too crowded.

Yep. Add to it that the folks on here are quite passionate about the sport and are emotionally invested in it.

(This year, I’m on IKON. Planning NOT to buy a pass next year and exclusively cross country ski, possibly enter a ski marathon race or two)

Interesting. Were there any other reasons why you are not buying a pass or was that it?