Inbounds avalanches

[highpeaksdrifter]

Avalanche training at Whiteface - March 2005

http://www.nspeast.org/html/avaliipics.htm

nice shots!

obviously avalanches/mudslides is what gave the slides its namesake and that people shoudld be properly trained for an event that most likely will happen again there.

where did you get the photos? were you partaking in this training?

Right, the Slides where formed from a series of rock/mud slides. There are rock slides throughout the High Peaks.

I found these shots on the internet one day when I was looking for pictures of The Slides. These pictures are nice, but the training is mostly taking place on the bottom where all the Slides (1 - 4)empty into and takes you back out. The shots taken from the runout up give you an idea of the terrain, but don't do them justice. You can only see part.

I'm not in the training. These are patrollers from ski areas all over the east coast who do avalanche training at WF every year.

 

[JimG.]

Avalanche training at Whiteface - March 2005

http://www.nspeast.org/html/avaliipics.htm

Don't know all that much about WF...had no idea the slides area was that extensive. Gotta check it out.

In fact, WF might be a good location for our family ski vacation this coming season. HPD, generally when's the best time of the season in terms of snow depth and what not...Feb/Mar like most other hills?

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Avalanche training at Whiteface - March 2005

http://www.nspeast.org/html/avaliipics.htm

Don't know all that much about WF...had no idea the slides area was that extensive. Gotta check it out.

In fact, WF might be a good location for our family ski vacation this coming season. HPD, generally when's the best time of the season in terms of snow depth and what not...Feb/Mar like most other hills?

The best time to have a shot at the Slides being open is difinatly March. WF/LP is a great place for a family vacation there is alot to do after a day on the slopes. If u come let me know and maybe we can hang out a bit. :beer:

 

[JimG.]

If u come let me know and maybe we can hang out a bit. :beer:

Definitely!

 

[blacknblue]

The guy that died in the A-Basin slide was a friend of a friend. Considering the terrain at some of these places (A-Bay, Copper, Jackson, Whistler, etc.), I'm actually surprised these things don't happen more often. Then there was the big one just on the other side of the rope at The Canyons. That one almost took some friends of mine.

Since you live out there you probably already know that almost all ski areas out west will slide in the right conditions...

I've skiied(ridden) through avi debis a ABasin, Copper, JH, Whistler, Canyons, etc...

The ABasin slide was kinda out of the ordinary.. Doesnt take away from the tradgedy of course...

The A-Bay slide was a bit freakish, but the weather had also been freakish. Perhaps I'm a little too cautious, but I wouldn't have jumped in where he did. The potential for a wet slide was there.
Yes, people out here are generally pretty aware of avalanches. When someone does get caught/killed in one, the story almost always makes me think, "Why were they there in the first place?" b/c of obvious avy conditions. Skiing through avy debris can certainly be sobering, esp. when looking up at the slide area and seeing a couple thousand vert of prime ski/ride terrain.

 

[blacknblue]

The guy that died in the A-Basin slide was a friend of a friend. Considering the terrain at some of these places (A-Bay, Copper, Jackson, Whistler, etc.), I'm actually surprised these things don't happen more often. Then there was the big one just on the other side of the rope at The Canyons. That one almost took some friends of mine.

The ski patrol at JH and many other western resorts do avalanche control almost every morning especially after new snow. Skiing inbounds is pretty safe as a result.

They use both hand charges(very dangerous) and shoot big guns(Avalauncher) at the slopes. Some charges are so big it rattles the windows of the condos. Really freaks out the "eastern flatlanders" :lol:

Nothing like hearing the avy guns in the morning after a big dump. It makes me salivate! :lol:
I was watching them bomb Devil's Castle at Alta, with huge slides barreling down with each blast. Then they dropped the rope and said, "It's okay now. Have fun." Uhh... you sure? :-?

 

[nancie2k]

they had a slide on vertigo at killington last year----too much blown snow

 

[dmc]

Perhaps I'm a little too cautious, but I wouldn't have jumped in where he did. The potential for a wet slide was there.

So seriuosly - for everyone else on this board - what were the things that would tip you off to the potential of a wetslide.
Especially in-bounds where most don't think something like that would happen.

Also - lot's of people get caught by the subtle things they miss when checking conditions..
People do get caught in slides after they make an informed "go - no go" and feel confident based upon the test they performed.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Compared to overall avalanche deaths each year the number is very very small for those who die inbounds. The mountain's ski patrol are the experts and should be the ones who know when a slope is not safe.

Snowmobilers account for a large chunck of ava deaths.

We all know that it does happen and almost impossible to predict.

One subtle clue is complete quiet, no birds chirping or any wildlife activity after all the birds have flown away, that indicates something is wrong.

Sometimes you can even hear the slope creaking just before it breaks off.

I think the east is trickier because out west avalanche reporting is done everyday, is widespread(signs, on the radio). Unless you can't read or hear it's easy to know the level of avalanche danger so therefore you know to be cautious.

When your dealing with mother nature it's near impossible to predict what she will do.

 

[dmc]

One subtle clue is complete quiet, no birds chirping or any wildlife activity after all the birds have flown away, that indicates something is wrong.

Never heard that one... But anythings possible...

I was more referring to aspect changes, temperature changes - things we normally don't pay too much attention to...

 

[ctenidae]

Ahh, the old "It's quiet. Too quiet" detection method.

Seems to me, it'd be nearly impossible to spot avi conditions inbounds, since teh experts who patrolled teh mountain before opening would have seen the conditions first, and if they didn't, it's unlikely any of us would. As a result, inbounds avi risk is another thing I'll file under "Acceptable Risk" and not worry about.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Ahh, the old "It's quiet. Too quiet" detection method.

Seems to me, it'd be nearly impossible to spot avi conditions inbounds, since teh experts who patrolled teh mountain before opening would have seen the conditions first, and if they didn't, it's unlikely any of us would. As a result, inbounds avi risk is another thing I'll file under "Acceptable Risk" and not worry about.

Agree 100%, I never give it much thought either. Have to admit tho, conditions can change during the day but the ski patrol is usually all over it. It's to their credit that there are so few inbound ava's.

 

[dmc]

Ahh, the old "It's quiet. Too quiet" detection method.

Seems to me, it'd be nearly impossible to spot avi conditions inbounds, since teh experts who patrolled teh mountain before opening would have seen the conditions first, and if they didn't, it's unlikely any of us would. As a result, inbounds avi risk is another thing I'll file under "Acceptable Risk" and not worry about.

You venture off groomed into stuff thats between 35 and 45 degrees steep and you risk avi...

Definately a risk - but like I always say - I keep my transceiver on whenever I'm out west..
"On at the car - off at the bar"

Cause the good stuff is the 35 and 45 stuff..

 

[bvibert]

Do enough people wear a transceiver in-bounds that the search people would be using them? What I mean is are beacon searches part of a routine in-bounds search?

 

[dmc]

Do enough people wear a transceiver in-bounds that the search people would be using them? What I mean is are beacon searches part of a routine in-bounds search?

A lot of place do...
When I went to Fernie - tons of people had them on...
Kicking Horse too...

Also I bring as many tranceivers as I can when I go out west - So my crew that I'm with has 'em... If they don't know how to use them we practice..
I have access to a bunch of them and we all have a liberal lending policy...

I'd venture to say that a patroller would try a beacon when first getting to a slide.. Most of them wear trancievers too...

 

[blacknblue]

One subtle clue is complete quiet, no birds chirping or any wildlife activity after all the birds have flown away, that indicates something is wrong.

Never heard that one... But anythings possible...

Yeah, I've never heard that either (for avalanches; other natural disasters, yes). Not too many bird chirp in January regardless.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

When it is quiet you can hear all kinds of birds out there in the winter. Ravens, Hawks, Chickadees, just to name a few. When you get older you start appreciating those kind of things.

:lol:

 

[blacknblue]

Perhaps I'm a little too cautious, but I wouldn't have jumped in where he did. The potential for a wet slide was there.

So seriuosly - for everyone else on this board - what were the things that would tip you off to the potential of a wetslide.
Especially in-bounds where most don't think something like that would happen.

Also - lot's of people get caught by the subtle things they miss when checking conditions..
People do get caught in slides after they make an informed "go - no go" and feel confident based upon the test they performed.

Wet slides are most common in springtime, generally occuring where there is deep snowpack and the temperatures have been quite warm for some time. The heavier, wet layers on top slough over the still-frozen bottom layers. It almost has the consistency of a mudslide. They are heavier, and easier to 'ride out', but being in one is like being hit by a car.

Most avalanches, though, occur in winter when you simply have a big snowfall. It is most common on slopes between 30-45 degrees and occurs when layers of snow break away from each other. When the snow types vary widely (as is common in CO), the layers slip far more easily, so a dump of light, fluffy snow on top of consolidated, frozen snow = big avalanche.

Things I look for when approaching a slope: 1) angle of slope (30-45 degrees is trouble).
2) recent weather (last snowfall, snow conditions before that last snowfall, temperatures since last snowfall).
3) 'Look' and 'feel' of the snow. I mostly look at wherever the slope is convex (going over a bulge/lip) to see if fissure lines are forming. I also check out the top of the slope--is there a cornice? is there significant wind loading? A lot of times you can 'feel' the snow on lower slopes to see how the top layer is adhering to the lower layers. I had a day at Telluride two Aprils ago. The top layer of snow had melted and re-frozen overnight. Then, 8 fluffy inches of snow fell. Although it looked great, those 8 inches just scraped off the icy layer of snow. No backcountry for me that day!
4) Are there recent tracks in there? I know first tracks are great, but I like to see some evidence that the snowpack is stable. If there are soem tracks already, that helps ease my mind. After a big dump or sketchy warm spring weather, I'll never be first tracks down anything even close to avy-prone.
5) Terrain. Don't ski funnels, gullies, narrow couloirs, etc... they tend to collect snow/avys. Is there evidence of past slides (eg. no trees at the runout)?

The reason I would have been cautious in the A-Bay wet slide scenario was b/c the weather had been crazy warm and the snow was very soft (and deep). The slope was the right pitch to slide and there were no previous, recent tracks in there (according to some reports). I would have skied it gingerly at best, probably on the side near some trees that I could duck into.
(Sorry if this was too long.)

Edit: side note: in most avalanche deaths (and they always make the news here) in CO, there are very few stories that involved an experienced backcountry skier/rider who did all the important avy checks. There are exceptions, but usually it's poor decision-making.

 

[blacknblue]

When it is quiet you can hear all kinds of birds out there in the winter. Ravens, Hawks, Chickadees, just to name a few. When you get older you start appreciating those kind of things.

:lol:

Older? Older!? Ask my knees how old they feel! :lol: That's true, SRO, but most avys tend to occur above treeline and/or high elevations where there aren't many birds. Especially with a helmet on and a whipping wind... I can't say I can remember enjoying birds chirp while skiing too often (except nordic skiing). Then again, the hearing's the first to go! :wink:

 

[dmc]

Some PIX of a wierd wet slide we saw in Fernie... You can see it started way up the ridge and just plowed down - creating a really smooth surface.. We were on the other side of the valley in less sunbaked snow...

HiRes - http://www.powderhound.org/2001/hi-res/fernie2001_4-6-01_Fishbowl_Slide_1.jpg

HeRes - http://www.powderhound.org/2001/hi-res/fernie2001_4-6-01_Fishbowl_Slide_3.jpg