Killington, 1/20/10 - The tamest "Beast" I've ever met :-(

[frankm938]

If I wanted to ski like this, I would practice it. So would other people. Just like we all did in the 90's. But now that fat/midfat freeskiing skis are available, there are many other entertaining ways to ski a variety of natural, inconsistant bumps.

its the right way to ski bumps. good bump skiers can ski bumps with the same style no matter what kind of ski there on. 90% of the time im on an 85 waist park ski, i dont start carving around bumps like a gaper just because im on a mid fat

 

[frankm938]

I've never seen most bump skiers carve a turn. I find that a little disappointing.

you cant ski bumps without first being able to carve a turn. as a matter of fact, when you ski bumps you are using a short radius carve. thats why you dont see good bump skiers skidding down the backside of bumps, because the are actually carving down the backside

 

[frankm938]

Going back on topic here....there was easily 25 trails at Killington with bumps on them this past Wednesday, plus probably 15 glades with bumps. Most of them weren't perfect zipperline bumps. But there were bumps.

Personally, I find inconsistant bumps to be much more interesting.

inconsistant bumps are a crutch

 

[2knees]

its the right way to ski bumps. good bump skiers can ski bumps with the same style no matter what kind of ski there on. 90% of the time im on an 85 waist park ski, i dont start carving around bumps like a gaper just because im on a mid fat

you cant ski bumps without first being able to carve a turn. as a matter of fact, when you ski bumps you are using a short radius carve. thats why you dont see good bump skiers skidding down the backside of bumps, because the are actually carving down the backside

inconsistant bumps are a crutch

the hat trick.

impressive.

 

[Highway Star]

you cant ski bumps without first being able to carve a turn. as a matter of fact, when you ski bumps you are using a short radius carve. thats why you dont see good bump skiers skidding down the backside of bumps, because the are actually carving down the backside

Riiiight.

A quick edge set down the fall line can hardly be considered any sort of carve. WC mogul skiers do not carve.

Here is actual carving in moguls (start at 1:45):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwvSfitjG9w&feature=related

 

[Highway Star]

its the right way to ski bumps. good bump skiers can ski bumps with the same style no matter what kind of ski there on. 90% of the time im on an 85 waist park ski, i dont start carving around bumps like a gaper just because im on a mid fat

You need bigger skis.

 

[frankm938]

Riiiight.

A quick edge set down the fall line can hardly be considered any sort of carve. WC mogul skiers do not carve.

Here is actual carving in moguls (start at 1:45):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwvSfitjG9w&feature=related

wrong! ive been to john smarts mogul clinic in whistler more than a few times and the coaches are all either current or former WC mogul skiers. everyone of them teaches to carve down the backside of the moguls.
and btw... that video has some great old school mogul skiing on it but none of those guys would do well by todays standards.
they are all letting there feet come out to the side on every turn instead of staying "stacked" with there shoulder, hip and feet stay in line over each other.
they are also planting on top of the bumps instead of the backside

 

[PomfretPlunge]

And they are hinging wickedly too. It's hard to see in the front angle video, but watch their heads bob sharply on each turn. That's 'cause they're absorbing with their lower backs instead of full, smooth up-down knee range. So their bodies are whipping forward each time. Owwwch

 

[frankm938]

And they are hinging wickedly too. It's hard to see in the front angle video, but watch their heads bob sharply on each turn. That's 'cause they're absorbing with their lower backs instead of full, smooth up-down knee range. So their bodies are whipping forward each time. Owwwch

maybe cuz highway star hasnt skied bumps since the 90's, he thinks this is how they still should be skied

 

[ozzy]

wrong! ive been to john smarts mogul clinic in whistler more than a few times and the coaches are all either current or former WC mogul skiers. everyone of them teaches to carve down the backside of the moguls.
and btw... that video has some great old school mogul skiing on it but none of those guys would do well by todays standards.
they are all letting there feet come out to the side on every turn instead of staying "stacked" with there shoulder, hip and feet stay in line over each other.
they are also planting on top of the bumps instead of the backside

Nice frank. When did you go to SMS? I went three yrs between 99 and 02

I agree. That vid is okay but their poles are to long for one thing.

 

[Highway Star]

Most of that video is no more than a few years old and the people carving in the bumps are on modern midfat shaped skis. Ignore the first minute and a half which is from the 90's.

I've heard the claim before that good mogul technique is to carve the back (downhill side) of bump while extending, but I've never seen it in reality.





(I like these videos because they show a variety of styles, or lack there of, on a very tough course)

Over the back side of the bump their skis are typically in the air or skidding. In a small handful of cases, you see them make a hard edge set and micro carve in the bump trough after their skis were off the ground over the back of the bump.

Nobody carves the back of a bump unless it is a very flat trail.

 

[Greg]

Check out 1:30. DBS owns a course that had a lot of the other guys bobbling. That guy is amazing.

 

[frankm938]

Nice frank. When did you go to SMS? I went three yrs between 99 and 02

I agree. That vid is okay but their poles are to long for one thing.

we must have crossed paths. i was there from 01-07. looking forward to going back this summer, its a blast. i enjoy the mtn biking as much as the skiing. the town goes off at nite
also.

 

[mondeo]

Carving bumps:


It's very difficult to distinguish between skidding and carved turns at WC speeds, especially the men's. What looks like pivot & skid is just really short radius turns on a highly 3D surface. It's much more discernible among the women (partly because they don't go as close to the edge of control, partly because of speed) or in slow-mo for men.

The WC men spend much more time in the air, take much more direct lines, and use A&E to control speed more, but what ski-to-snow contact there is involves carving, fully on the tip of the ski:



Incidentally, I really like that competition format.

Skidding in the bumps is a crutch. I'll use it on steep bumps, places where going with a single carved turn I'd pick up way too much speed but I'm not good enough to throw in a couple check turns, icy bumps, etc., basically anywhere where my skill is lacking (which is a lot of places.) But even I, a hack, carve down good quality bumps on moderate pitches.

 

[mondeo]

we must have crossed paths. i was there from 01-07. looking forward to going back this summer, its a blast. i enjoy the mtn biking as much as the skiing. the town goes off at nite
also.

I'll put you down for a referral. Should be making it myself.

 

[Highway Star]

The WC men spend much more time in the air, take much more direct lines, and use A&E to control speed more, but what ski-to-snow contact there is involves carving, fully on the tip of the ski:



Incidentally, I really like that competition format.

I would still not call that carving. It's a hard edge set with a small amount of slide due to snow displacement.

 

[Greg]

I would still not call that carving. It's a hard edge set with a small amount of slide due to snow displacement.

In the purest definition of the word, yeah, you're probably right. There is some skid in there. After all, most mogul skis have a turn radius similar to that of a GS race ski. So despite them being much softer, you're still not going to get a true carve while in the bumps. There's not enough surface area on the backside (or is it frontside? I forget... :dunce: ) of a bump for that.

The point is though, there is some carving in there and the fact that the top bumpers can do it in a split second while incorporating a third dimension in the form of A&E and that's what's impressive to me.

I kinda forget what we're debating here....

 

[ozzy]

we must have crossed paths. i was there from 01-07. looking forward to going back this summer, its a blast. i enjoy the mtn biking as much as the skiing. the town goes off at nite
also.

I thought that the mogul lanes to the lookers left of the T-bar were better (steeper) than lookers right. To bad they use that for freeride terrain now. The stuff more toward the middle of the glacier has more of a Mt Hood pitch.
Still a great time though, but the cost for the adult camp started to get too expensive. For the same price af a 9 day adult camp you can go to Chile and ski pow for week.
I enjoyed drinking with the coaches, especially Trennon, Jay Vaugh, Mike Actinkson and Marc McDonnel as off hill activities

 

[ta&idaho]

I don't run a mogul skiing website, I wasn't here in the 80s, my family isn't intimately involved in the operations of a rival mountain, and I don't even have the vocabulary to debate world cup mogul technique, but I've always had a blast at Killington.

And the last time I was there, Outer Limits was sporting some pretty fun bumps.

 

[mayhem]

Snowmaking

After reading these comments I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions.

As a killington snowmaker, I'm used to hearing a lot of this talk from weekend/holiday warriors, none of whom have ever made snow in their life. I'm not sure where to begin but I'll start w/ the process:

You can't just sling powder everywhere and expect it to be there 4 hours after the lifts open. In late fall, we start by laying a base layer of heavy, wet snow to fill in all the cracks, eroded gulleys, and smooth over the boulders.

We gradually dry this up until we have a good base that's ice on the bottom, and powder on the top.

Problems:

There are micro-climates all over that resort. It's just a big collection of micro-climates actually. We start at the top of a run, and make small adjustments all the way down using water pressure. (We try to get all the air we can).

A day is 24 hrs long, and the weather changes throughout. The sun comes up in the east and warms exposed surfaces, crossing the sky and warming other exposed surfaces as the day progresses. Cloud cover, humidity, wind - all affect the snow continuously. At night it DROPS big time.

Snowmakers watch all of this, and are ready to jump fast when something happens. It is one of the most demanding jobs there is. 12 hrs of humping down trails, covered in ice, practicing an art form that weekenders don't realize exists.

It costs BIG $$$$ to do this. Skiers see only what's visible. Behind those doors of pump houses and control rooms is a multi-million dollar snowmaking system, manned by experts, who consider themselves to be the best in the world at what they do.

Complaining about snow is like complaining about God. Only a God could control the myriad of factors that affect snow conditions, Killington can't, I can't, nobody can. The things that affect your weekend are the cumulative affects of every seconds worth of weather change the area has experienced since the first snowflake fell.

Grooming

Unfortunately for skiers, Ski Resorts are actually businesses that investors put money into hoping to see an above average return. Marketing knows how many reservations they have and what zip code their coming from. We;re talking 10's of thousands of visitors from all over. While the majority are from New England, many come from the UK,

Of these thousands of paying customers with their families, a percentage have never been skiing in their life. I'll guess 10%. Another 40% ski 1 or 2 weekends a year, and make it a big family outing. On a holiday weekend, the locals don't go near the place.

How anyone would expect to have the mountain and snow to themselves on a holiday is beyond me. A holiday means roughly 80% of the skiers on double diamonds have no business being there. They aren't skiers they're obstacles - unpredictable and dangerous. They all want to say they ski'd the steepest mogul run in the east. They all want the T-shirt, and their parents are paying for it.

The idea that ANY ski resort in such a market could survive w/out extensive grooming is absurd. Why turn away 90% of your customers to cater to a few guys who show up twice a year expecting Breckenridge? Then they spend the rest of the year bad mouthing the place, the people, and the owners.

We don't have magic wands in those groomers. It might be the warmest job, but it isn't easy and it takes all night to groom some of those trails. There is a limit to what can be done from 4:30pm to 9:00am, and it's an all out no holds barred race every night to make that place sparkle in the morning.

I know Killington isn't the greatest ski resort in the world. But when it comes to snowmaking, they're either 1 or 2, and have proved it.

Don't like the place? That's cool, but most of the critics here have VERY unrealistic expectations, from the weather, and from the people who invested that 80million!

Have fun skiing! Hope to see you out there.