Killington arresting skiers?

[JesusBuiltMyCrotchRod]

The terms of the lease specifically state that the public has full use of the land. No exceptions. Killington has no right to control that, and if they do so it is a violation of the lease.

So you have personally seen the lease? How do you have access to such intellectual property? There is NO WAY in hell that Powdr has the legal obligation to allow people on their trail network when they deem it is unsafe.... So when a trail is "CLOSED" in ski season, people have the right to say screw it, we the people are allowed to ride wherever we want? NOOO way.. I have not seen the lease, but I can guarantee that Killington as the legal land manager has every right to prohibit certain activities as they see fit.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

A big part of any lease between a ski resort and the mountain whether it's the National Forest or a Vermont State Forest is about public safety and the resort's responsibility to ensure that part of the lease. Kmart is not the only resort restricting access during this part of the ski season.

 

[millerm277]

So you have personally seen the lease? How do you have access to such intellectual property?

Yes, I have a copy of their land lease, their lodging lease, and all modifications made to them. If you want a copy, you just have to ask VT State for it.

 

[riverc0il]

The terms of the lease specifically state that the public has full use of the land. No exceptions. Killington has no right to control that, and if they do so it is a violation of the lease.

The point still stands that if the lease does specifically state "no exceptions," then Killington would have no right to rope or close trails when they are open. This is most certainly not the case or Killington would be liable for accidents and injuries. I believe Killington recently stepped up their closed trail policy to three strikes and you are out or something? What ever the exact policy was, in the last few years, I do know they stepped up the rhetoric about not skiing closed trails or else. I don't see the difference between "closing" a trail early season due to snowmaking, grooming machines, and workers which cause a dangerous situation when a lot of people are earning turns versus closing a trail for other such obstacles and dangerous situations when they are open. Additonally, let's see a full copy of the lease instead of quoting just a single line from the lease, that way we can verify "no exceptions" which I have still yet to see proof.

 

[danny p]

just my $0.02 in regard to the "entitlement" mentality of people hiking k to "earn there turns." I would be willing to bet all the people hiking are season pass holders. There is your entitlement. Most people dropped between 500-1000 bucks on a pass to watch other mountains open with the same or in some cases less snow than K. These people probably bought a pass to K because they don't wanna ski Mt. Snow, which explains why they rather hike K than pay to ski Snow. K should have been open, no question. And as far as liability, could one of these people sue the mountain, they have already signed a waiver with their pass, not to mention K covering their butts by having signs made and ambassadors and ski patrol on duty? Just food for thought.

 

[tcharron]

Bitch bitch bitch, thats all I hear about Killington these days.

Let me put it in laymens terms, theyre trying to do two things, protect themselves from any liabilty, and keep conditions in as good condition as possible for next weeks opening. Considering theyre just hassling you and no arrests have been made, Powdr in reality isnt prohibiting anyone from accessing the land, just covering their asses.

They put up huge signs prohibiting hiking and skiing! Not to mention I suspect they wouldn't be liable at all as they don't own it, THE STATE does.

 

[tjf67]

So you have personally seen the lease? How do you have access to such intellectual property? There is NO WAY in hell that Powdr has the legal obligation to allow people on their trail network when they deem it is unsafe.... So when a trail is "CLOSED" in ski season, people have the right to say screw it, we the people are allowed to ride wherever we want? NOOO way.. I have not seen the lease, but I can guarantee that Killington as the legal land manager has every right to prohibit certain activities as they see fit.

Its not a specific lease thing it is a vermont thing. Take it down a notch tiger you are wrong

 

[ski_resort_observer]

One of the many things missing here is that the parking lot and area one walks thru to access the trails is private property.

 

[JesusBuiltMyCrotchRod]

I'm guessing that alot of people posting in favor of "hiking" is either 1. very young and naive, 2. ignorant... Buying a season pass and signing a waiver will not illiminate the potential for lawsuits. Unfortunately, waivers virtually mean nothing these days.

Its amazing when people tip-toe around the topic to prove their point.

1. If Killington has NO RIGHT to ban hiking/skiing on "Closed Trails".... Then how do they have a right to ban skiing/riding on "Closed Trails" in-season?

2. Its only early november people!!!! There are only a handful of resorts open and Killington opened only 1 week after its nearest competitor...Big friggin deal! Grow up, be patient and respect their wishes....

I've been lurking on this site for a while.. I admit I enjoy the site, but the amount of armchair "resort operators" in here is amazing! Do you really think that you have a better way of running a resort than individuals that are actually in-industry professionals? The problem with todays society...Message boards! Forums give people who should not have a voice, a public forum to spew nonsense and ramblings....

 

[tcharron]

I'm guessing that alot of people posting in favor of "hiking" is either 1. very young and naive, 2. ignorant... Buying a season pass and signing a waiver will not illiminate the potential for lawsuits. Unfortunately, waivers virtually mean nothing these days.

Its amazing when people tip-toe around the topic to prove their point.

1. If Killington has NO RIGHT to ban hiking/skiing on "Closed Trails".... Then how do they have a right to ban skiing/riding on "Closed Trails" in-season?

2. Its only early november people!!!! There are only a handful of resorts open and Killington opened only 1 week after its nearest competitor...Big friggin deal! Grow up, be patient and respect their wishes....

I've been lurking on this site for a while.. I admit I enjoy the site, but the amount of armchair "resort operators" in here is amazing! Do you really think that you have a better way of running a resort than individuals that are actually in-industry professionals? The problem with todays society...Message boards! Forums give people who should not have a voice, a public forum to spew nonsense and ramblings....

Tell me. When you go camping in a National Park, who covers the insurance? As far as #1 is concerned, they can yank your pass and revoke your private use of their lifts. They can ban you from the buildings they own, so you'll be peeing in the woods and possibly being arrested for indecent exposure.

The crux of the issue is, Killington wants to become a more elitest ski area by taking advantage of the citizens of Vermont. Have you LOOKED at the prices they're charging for children and family programs? Sure, people will vote with their wallets, but financially well off individuals will still pay it, so they will still be profitable. But in the process, they are trampling all over the spirit of the agreement from the state to actually LEASE that land.

 

[Highway Star]

I'm guessing that alot of people posting in favor of "hiking" is either 1. very young and naive, 2. ignorant... Buying a season pass and signing a waiver will not illiminate the potential for lawsuits. Unfortunately, waivers virtually mean nothing these days.

Its amazing when people tip-toe around the topic to prove their point.

1. If Killington has NO RIGHT to ban hiking/skiing on "Closed Trails".... Then how do they have a right to ban skiing/riding on "Closed Trails" in-season?

2. Its only early november people!!!! There are only a handful of resorts open and Killington opened only 1 week after its nearest competitor...Big friggin deal! Grow up, be patient and respect their wishes....

I've been lurking on this site for a while.. I admit I enjoy the site, but the amount of armchair "resort operators" in here is amazing! Do you really think that you have a better way of running a resort than individuals that are actually in-industry professionals? The problem with todays society...Message boards! Forums give people who should not have a voice, a public forum to spew nonsense and ramblings....

When you buy a pass, you sign a document agreeing to the skiers responsablity code, and many other statements, some of which are that you may lose the pass if you ski closed trails.

So, techincally, if they close the mountain to skiing, and you have a pass, they could revoke the pass for hiking up and skiing. Certainly. But they couldn't have you arrested. If you didn't have a pass, then you're just another member of the public and you can hike and ski wherever you please.

Regardless, I would highly recommend being on your best behavior at Killington this year, until we see what the vibe is.......

 

[JimG.]

I'm guessing that alot of people posting in favor of "hiking" is either 1. very young and naive, 2. ignorant... Buying a season pass and signing a waiver will not illiminate the potential for lawsuits. Unfortunately, waivers virtually mean nothing these days.

Its amazing when people tip-toe around the topic to prove their point.

1. If Killington has NO RIGHT to ban hiking/skiing on "Closed Trails".... Then how do they have a right to ban skiing/riding on "Closed Trails" in-season?

2. Its only early november people!!!! There are only a handful of resorts open and Killington opened only 1 week after its nearest competitor...Big friggin deal! Grow up, be patient and respect their wishes....

I've been lurking on this site for a while.. I admit I enjoy the site, but the amount of armchair "resort operators" in here is amazing! Do you really think that you have a better way of running a resort than individuals that are actually in-industry professionals? The problem with todays society...Message boards! Forums give people who should not have a voice, a public forum to spew nonsense and ramblings....

Agreed.

I've taken Killington's POV before here...watch out!

 

[atkinson]

I am neither young and naive nor ignorant, but thanks for the straw man argument.

Hiking up for turns should be no different than hiking up ... for walking down ... or riding down ... or snowshoeing down ... or crawling down. You get the point.

Killington, nor any other resort in Vermont, stops people from hiking when there is no snow. In fact, most resorts advertise their hiking.

The liability issue is interesting because several resorts seem to have come to terms with personal responibility and choose to allow and encourage hiking, even when there is snow on the ground, i.e. MRG, Smuggs, Bolton, Jay and Stowe. Personally, I think the more regulation, enforcement and hand-wringing there is, the better chance there is for a frivilous lawsuit.

Stowe had a full parking lot this weekend with people hiking and skiing. Town was very busy. I don't know what it was like at Killington, apparently not so busy.

By the way, we wouldn't even be having this discussion in Europe, where personal responsibility is much more prevalent.

John

 

[SkiDork]

I'm guessing that alot of people posting in favor of "hiking" is either 1. very young and naive, 2. ignorant... Buying a season pass and signing a waiver will not illiminate the potential for lawsuits. Unfortunately, waivers virtually mean nothing these days.

Its amazing when people tip-toe around the topic to prove their point.

1. If Killington has NO RIGHT to ban hiking/skiing on "Closed Trails".... Then how do they have a right to ban skiing/riding on "Closed Trails" in-season?

2. Its only early november people!!!! There are only a handful of resorts open and Killington opened only 1 week after its nearest competitor...Big friggin deal! Grow up, be patient and respect their wishes....

I've been lurking on this site for a while.. I admit I enjoy the site, but the amount of armchair "resort operators" in here is amazing! Do you really think that you have a better way of running a resort than individuals that are actually in-industry professionals? The problem with todays society...Message boards! Forums give people who should not have a voice, a public forum to spew nonsense and ramblings....

The jury is still out on POWDRs ability to run an eastern resort...

 

[ctenidae]

I've been lurking on this site for a while.. I admit I enjoy the site, but the amount of armchair "resort operators" in here is amazing! Do you really think that you have a better way of running a resort than individuals that are actually in-industry professionals? The problem with todays society...Message boards! Forums give people who should not have a voice, a public forum to spew nonsense and ramblings....

So, don't read the nonsense. Once you get throught the chaff, there's a lot of good stuff. For instance, had I been considering going up to Killington pre-opening and hiking for some turns, I might think twice about it having read this. I wasn't, and won't, but still...

I would also argue that everyone should have a voice. Maybe not everyone should have ears, though. Or left pinky toes. Those should be banned in their entirety.

 

[JimG.]

I am neither young and naive nor ignorant, but thanks for the straw man argument.

Hiking up for turns should be no different than hiking up ... for walking down ... or riding down ... or snowshoeing down ... or crawling down. You get the point.

Killington, nor any other resort in Vermont, stops people from hiking when there is no snow. In fact, most resorts advertise their hiking.

The liability issue is interesting because several resorts seem to have come to terms with personal responibility and choose to allow and encourage hiking, even when there is snow on the ground, i.e. MRG, Smuggs, Bolton, Jay and Stowe. Personally, I think the more regulation, enforcement and hand-wringing there is, the better chance there is for a frivilous lawsuit.

Stowe had a full parking lot this weekend with people hiking and skiing. Town was very busy. I don't know what it was like at Killington, apparently not so busy.

By the way, we wouldn't even be having this discussion in Europe, where personal responsibility is much more prevalent.

John

Back into the fray...I understand your logic completely.

I'm annoyingly simple...if Killington doesn't want people hiking up, for whatever reason, just don't. Vote with your dollars and go to one of the places you listed to hike. They want to blow snow in peace. They want to be alone. Whatever.

I'm guessing POWDR doesn't want to hear people complaining about the lack of or quality of terrain by opening just because they can. I hear that alot. Paid $39 and the skiing sucked. I went to Mt. Snow yesterday and the skiing was excellent because they had time to blow alot of snow and open alot of terrain.

As much as I would love to, I think I'll never own or operate a ski area. You just cannot please everyone.

 

[tcharron]

Back into the fray...I understand your logic completely.

I'm annoyingly simple...if Killington doesn't want people hiking up, for whatever reason, just don't. Vote with your dollars and go to one of the places you listed to hike. They want to blow snow in peace. They want to be alone. Whatever.

I'm guessing POWDR doesn't want to hear people complaining about the lack of or quality of terrain by opening just because they can. I hear that alot. Paid $39 and the skiing sucked. I went to Mt. Snow yesterday and the skiing was excellent because they had time to blow alot of snow and open alot of terrain.

As much as I would love to, I think I'll never own or operate a ski area. You just cannot please everyone.

The problem is, given the trend, the dollars will still come in. But from the financially better off. If you make 3 times more money from a person, then you can afford to price two others right out of the equation. I don't mind a company doing it, it happens all the time. But when your leasing state owned land for the purpose of providing access to the sport to the masses, then your screwing the residents whom that land is there for. And I believe they're locked in at their option for another 53 years?

You're already seeing some fallout in the towns resistance to some of their commercial projects on their privately owned land, which of course is reserved for high priced condos and more 'weath targeted' investments.

 

[JimG.]

The problem is, given the trend, the dollars will still come in. But from the financially better off. If you make 3 times more money from a person, then you can afford to price two others right out of the equation. I don't mind a company doing it, it happens all the time. But when your leasing state owned land for the purpose of providing access to the sport to the masses, then your screwing the residents whom that land is there for. And I believe they're locked in at their option for another 53 years?

You're already seeing some fallout in the towns resistance to some of their commercial projects on their privately owned land, which of course is reserved for high priced condos and more 'weath targeted' investments.

In any business, internally or externally, decisions are made and positions are taken.

Then the reaction comes due and compromise is established.

Or the enterprise fails.

 

[atkinson]

So killing positive energy for skiing and riding is good for the bottom line because Killington can make snow in "peace"? There is no way that even a huge pack of hikers could impact the amount or quality of machine made snow. And wouldn't Stowe and Jay have the same concerns?

I strongly believe that the healthy future of skiing and riding is dependent on embracing earn your turns enthusiasm.

John

 

[Greg]

I've been lurking on this site for a while.. I admit I enjoy the site, but the amount of armchair "resort operators" in here is amazing! Do you really think that you have a better way of running a resort than individuals that are actually in-industry professionals? The problem with todays society...Message boards! Forums give people who should not have a voice, a public forum to spew nonsense and ramblings....

You know.....you're right! I'm pulling the plug!

:lol: