Killington: FAILing to open this weekend....

[SnowRider]

The economy sucks and Killington is making the smart business move. If half the people on this board ran Killington they would be bankrupt after one season. Stop complaining the cold will come.

It's filling the boards up with garbage.

 

[thetrailboss]

It seems like replacing the glades triple (the oldest lift on the mountain) with one that gets closer to the actual summit is the best solution.

I think that HS in one of his many mock maps/lift plans had this scenario in mind. The problem is that the summit is in state land, I think, and there is a cutting ban above a certain elevation in Vermont. So clearing the trees to the summit for the lift would be problematic at best. As you may recall from our April 2007 trek to the summit to ski Catwalk, that terrain is rugged at best and would also require lots of dynamite and sitework. Maybe it would give them an excuse to remove that eyesore at the top that is the old firetower.

 

[Highway Star]

All fine and dandy, but you don't understand how much it would cost to install said lift....assuming you had a place to put it and had the money and $$$ to get around the NIMBY/treehugger crowd and the Act 250/developmental review process.

I would say that you're the one that really doesn't know.

For a used, in good condition fixed grip triple, with less than 2,000 ft length, on an existing trail with no tree cutting, I'm rather confident it could be bought and installed for under $1m. For a relocated/refurb/frankenlift, probably $500k. For a short surface lift, $150k-$200k.

There would be very little act 250 opposition to a short lift on an existing trail, even at high elevation. They cut around 10 acres this year, some of it above 3,000ft, and carved the heck out of Skye Peak at around 3,700 ft. Nobody batted an eye. A lift on Downdraft would require some impact at the top, but nothing compared to the K-1 or peak lodge. The permitting issues are relatively minor overall.

 

[thetrailboss]

I would say that you're the one that really doesn't know.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that you also had a law degree and worked in a firm that handles developmental issues for ski areas. :blink:

There would be very little act 250 opposition to a short lift on an existing trail, even at high elevation. They cut around 10 acres this year, some of it above 3,000ft, and carved the heck out of Skye Peak at around 3,700 ft. Nobody batted an eye. A lift on Downdraft would require some impact at the top, but nothing compared to the K-1 or peak lodge. The permitting issues are relatively minor overall.

You'd be surprised how one person can make a stink and throw the whole thing off.

WHERE would you put this lift without cutting a tree? Realistically, where would you put it...not dreaming. IIRC you suggested that it should cut across the Canyon area and terminate on Upper Escapade/the headwall below the K-1 terminal. You and I both know that there is not enough room to safely install a chair lift there. And as for a handle tow, K-mart isn't going to do that either.

There is a lot of regulations for any high elevation development. With regards to the Skye Peak Express, to which I think you are referring, that was a retrofit/upgrade of an existing lift, so less hoops to jump through. As to the trails, from what I have seen it was regrading/widening of existing trails and not construction of new trails. Again, major difference in terms of regulation.

And this is assuming that, during this credit crunch, you could find someone to finance this whole undertaking at a reasonable rate...and that the demand is there for such an investment when most people up here are trying to figure out how to heat their homes this winter, let alone ski or ride.

 

[deadheadskier]

Why not just run the Snowdon Poma and download on the Quad? Yes it's a bit lower in elevation and the aspect faces more towards the sun, but skiing could be had for those who want it.

 

[ctenidae]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that you also had a law degree and worked in a firm that handles developmental issues for ski areas. :blink:

 

[Highway Star]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that you also had a law degree and worked in a firm that handles developmental issues for ski areas. :blink:



You'd be surprised how one person can make a stink and throw the whole thing off.

WHERE would you put this lift without cutting a tree? Realistically, where would you put it...not dreaming. IIRC you suggested that it should cut across the Canyon area and terminate on Upper Escapade/the headwall below the K-1 terminal. You and I both know that there is not enough room to safely install a chair lift there. And as for a handle tow, K-mart isn't going to do that either.

There is a lot of regulations for any high elevation development. With regards to the Skye Peak Express, to which I think you are referring, that was a retrofit/upgrade of an existing lift, so less hoops to jump through. As to the trails, from what I have seen it was regrading/widening of existing trails and not construction of new trails. Again, major difference in terms of regulation.

And this is assuming that, during this credit crunch, you could find someone to finance this whole undertaking at a reasonable rate...and that the demand is there for such an investment when most people up here are trying to figure out how to heat their homes this winter, let alone ski or ride.

All I can say for now is that you are not very well informed on this. Try harder.

 

[thetrailboss]

All I can say for now is that you are not very well informed on this. Try harder.

You got my 2 minutes worth...that is $2.50 of free input. You can buy yourself a cup of coffee with that...

I have not heard anything in response as to my questions/comments. In fact, it seems that I am getting a lot of hot air instead of a substantive conversation. But it is what it is. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Greg]

All I can say for now is that you are not very well informed on this. Try harder.

You got my 2 minutes worth...that is $2.50 of free input. You can buy yourself a cup of coffee with that...

I have not heard anything in response as to my questions/comments. In fact, it seems that I am getting a lot of hot air instead of a substantive conversation. But it is what it is. I'll leave it at that.

Let's just schedule the ski-off and get this over with...

:lol:

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Why not just run the Snowdon Poma and download on the Quad? Yes it's a bit lower in elevation and the aspect faces more towards the sun, but skiing could be had for those who want it.

Upper Bunny buster is a nice carving run..I'd enjoy that..but the Poma hardly has any lift capacity..more than a couple hundred skiers and riders would mean a crazy line..

 

[thetrailboss]

Let's just schedule the ski-off and get this over with...

:lol:

:lol: Yes, I think that the folks at KZone and AZone would be very much interested in a ski-off with or without the "mandatory GS turns."

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

sniz-ap..lmbfao

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Let's just schedule the ski-off and get this over with...

:lol:

Times 2

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

:lol: Yes, I think that the folks at KZone and AZone would be very much interested in a ski-off with or without the "mandatory GS turns."

What's the mandatory GS turns about??? We might as well just add goose-stomping and stem christies..lol

 

[Highway Star]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that you also had a law degree and worked in a firm that handles developmental issues for ski areas. :blink:



You'd be surprised how one person can make a stink and throw the whole thing off.

WHERE would you put this lift without cutting a tree? Realistically, where would you put it...not dreaming. IIRC you suggested that it should cut across the Canyon area and terminate on Upper Escapade/the headwall below the K-1 terminal. You and I both know that there is not enough room to safely install a chair lift there. And as for a handle tow, K-mart isn't going to do that either.

There is a lot of regulations for any high elevation development. With regards to the Skye Peak Express, to which I think you are referring, that was a retrofit/upgrade of an existing lift, so less hoops to jump through. As to the trails, from what I have seen it was regrading/widening of existing trails and not construction of new trails. Again, major difference in terms of regulation.

And this is assuming that, during this credit crunch, you could find someone to finance this whole undertaking at a reasonable rate...and that the demand is there for such an investment when most people up here are trying to figure out how to heat their homes this winter, let alone ski or ride.

Real quick...

1. I've read plenty of permits and history on ski area development. Yes, SOME of the MAJOR projects can get mired in the permitting process and be hindered for years. Deals get cut. But many of the minor one go through with minimal problems. Such as, this years Killington projects, which were much more signifigant than putting in an upper mountain lift.

2. This year project cut down numerous trees around and above 3,000 ft. However, the biggest item, IMHO, was the crossover trail on Skye peak which is basicly right at the peak and required blasting and signifigant earth moving. Not to mention the earthwork and foundation of the top terminal. They did some basic studies (bicknell's thrush), submitted the permit app with supporting information, and it was passed. Don't make it sound like it's some impossible task, because it's not.

3. Act 250 controls logging above 2,500 ft, but doesn't ban - it simply requires a permit!

4. IMHO, my first choice for an upper mountain lift would be from the turn on lower/middle downdraft, to the top of upper downdraft. This would require virtually no logging (ok, maybe a TINY bit in the middle), and the leveling off above the top of upper cascade/downdraft, right next to the peak lodge walkway, where it's close to flat already. Totally possible.

5. Killington pays for improvements out of profit, or at least they claim to.

 

[thetrailboss]

What's the mandatory GS turns about??? We might as well just add goose-stomping and stem christies..lol

Just one spot where they come up...

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Great idea for a lift Highwaystar...

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

I'm all for mandatory GS turns...makes bumps even more fun than the swivel pivot slam technique...besides, there are plenty of ass-noodlers out there in the bumps but not too many people making GS turns through them. On the other hand, my first experience at MRG involved too many attempted GS turns...just came back from living out west and was used to big, wide open bowls and trees...after a few tastey bark snacks I remembered how to turn more quickly.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

:uzi:

I'm all for mandatory GS turns...makes bumps even more fun than the swivel pivot slam technique...besides, there are plenty of ass-noodlers out there in the bumps but not too many people making GS turns through them. On the other hand, my first experience at MRG involved too many attempted GS turns...just came back from living out west and was used to big, wide open bowls and trees...after a few tastey bark snacks I remembered how to turn more quickly.

GS turns through big mushy spring bumps are fun..through icy zipperlines..ahhahaha:uzi::uzi::uzi:

Blame it on the rain yeah..

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Just one spot where they come up...

What a bunch of goobers..they probably meant jump/hop turns..lol..