KILLINGTON/PICO: AZ Challenge 2007 Response/Feedback Thread

[Geoff]

Personally, the only issue I have is the announced shortened season and the anticipated slow rollout of trail count in November and December. Until they fix food & beverage, I'm not going to eat their cafeteria food so having the cafeterias closed midweek at KBL and Bear doesn't matter.

If I owned property at Sunrise or on the lower Skyeship, I'd be pissed. The announced delay of Bear Mountain opening until after Xmas doesn't impact me and I rarely go to Skyeship base unless I have house guests with kids.

They're taking the place somewhat upscale to better attract the kind of customer who will buy those trailside house lots and the condos they plan to throw up in the parking lot. I'm happy if they see 500-600K skier visits since it makes the place more civilized in Saturdays.

If they really do close on April 13th, my condo is going on the market and I'm going elsewhere. I suffer through Killington's midwinter bullshit lousy product to enjoy their spring skiing. Killington has always filled the parking lots in April and it's pathetic if they don't operate at least a couple lifts until the first weekend of May. I think they should contract down to the K1 Gondola rather than Superstar. Maybe have the Canyon Quad, Snowdon triple, and Glades triple on standby weekends. They'd only have to stockpile snow on what are already very high traffic areas that could be resurfaced weekly all season.

 

[mountainman]

It will always be there.

Once the leaders in the industry. Now the followers. Sad to see it has come to this. But you know the Killington terrain will always be there no matter who owns it. Powdr has a new toy and bad for us they have to learn how to play with it. Pray for snow and when it comes just go enjoy it. Things will change when demand calls for it. Just like bad winters, we just have new owners. Worse would be both.

 

[threecy]

Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.

 

[skiadikt]

Totally agree. By moving the main mid-week lodges to Snowshed and closing K-1 lodge you are forcing better skiers to ski down the green crossover trails to get to Snowshed for lunch forcing a 2 chair lift back to the better slopes that you really want to ski.

Getting to Snowshed (and then back to the main lifts) can be a pain. By not having the K1 lodge open mid week they are making the situation way worse.

once again it shows how much he doesn't get it and how they're applying a western way of thinking to eastern skiing.

 

[skiadikt]

Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.

steady stream of income eh ... don't underestimate the importance of the late season skiing thing. THE reason i made the full-time move to k in the late 80's was due to the longer season (i agree early season is done), eventually bringing 4 friends with me, throw 2 teenagers in the mix and you have 7 season passes for nearly 20 years. do the math. i'd call that a pretty steady stream of income. and judging by the outcry, there are many others who feel the same way. it was all part of the killington "brand" and that "brand" is what made killington what it was through the 80's & 90's

as for the skyeship 1, yeah i never ski it except when i have friends w/ kids and then i find it's a perfect trail for familes w/ kids. and if i was a family up for a ski week, i'd be pretty disappointed that one of the best novice/family runs on the mtn was closed.

 

[millerm277]

Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.

Without those two, my family and I would most likely not be at Killington. I would estimate that we typically have spent about $2000-4000 a season at Killington for the last 10 years.

 

[tcharron]

Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.

Bear in mind it isn't just the fact that it's now closed 2 days a week. It's based also on the fact that the initial announcement was *5* days a week, and it was modified.

The facts at the time of the trip aren't what is going to make me say 'Oh hell, let's just go on up'. The way things have been announced, and the way the customers have been treated is what makes the decision.

 

[2knees]

Without those two, my family and I would most likely not be at Killington. I would estimate that we typically have spent about $2000-4000 a season at Killington for the last 10 years.

come on. You mean to say the sole reason your family chose killington is the fact that you can ski down to rt 4 on a tuesday or wednesday? Or the fact that you can ski the glades area in mid november? there are plenty of other early season options, well as early as killington by a couple of days, that offer equal or better terrain. The october openings were gone before powdr.

Bottom line, if they would stay open, even if it was only weekends the last month, till mid may almost all of their other decisions would probably be forgotten once the snow flies. Forgotten by the majority i should say, obviously the kids pricing is gonna still tick off that particular clientele and condo owners affected by skyeship may not be so forgiving either.

 

[Greg]

come on. You mean to say the sole reason your family chose killington is the fact that you can ski down to rt 4 on a tuesday or wednesday? Or the fact that you can ski the glades area in mid november? there are plenty of other early season options, well as early as killington by a couple of days, that offer equal or better terrain. The october openings were gone before powdr.

Bottom line, if they would stay open, even if it was only weekends the last month, till mid may almost all of their other decisions would probably be forgotten once the snow flies. Forgotten by the majority i should say, obviously the kids pricing is gonna still tick off that particular clientele and condo owners affected by skyeship may not be so forgiving either.

Well said. Killington hasn't been the first to open lately anyway and the mid-November projected is pretty much inline with recent years. I think the April 13 shutdown is the most valid gripe. I think they should push for May, but whatever. If they're aiming for mid-April, there won't be any snowmaking glacier blown on Superstar so unless we have another April 2007, then the middle of the month will probably be it. It is what it is.

 

[nycskier]

I've been a pass holder for the past 3 years and I did not purchase a Killington pass this year. Usually I ski 20 plus days at killington (usually early season before X-mas and late season March and April). Last year I skied 4 of my 22 Killington days AFTER 4/13!

High season I am usually travelling and trying out other resorts out West. One of the main reasons I did not get a Killington pass this year was I got the feeling from management that they will be scaling back on early and late season skiing. They have stated that they will be less likely to blow snow early and late meaning even if they are open conditions might not be as good (unless mother nature intervenes).

While 1 change in particular (like the closing of Skyeship) did not cause me not to get a pass and a ski house at Killington this year, it was the changes in general that lead me to decided to stay away and try other resorts this year.

I doubt I will do more than a handful of days at Killington this year, which is a shame because I had a ton of fun skiing (and apres skiing) at Killingtont he last 2 winters.

After a year of "exploring" I might go back to Killington or I might find a new home. I just hope the feeling I was getting this off season that the new Killington doesn't want my kind of skier is incorrect and things there don't turn out as badly as some of us fear.

 

[threecy]

It'll be interesting to look back at these threads in 5 years.

 

[Beartrap]

After reading that I doubt I will ski there for a long time. I will be focusing on Peak Resorts, like Snow, the Tash, and the Crotch for my skiing dollars.

 

[threecy]

After reading that I doubt I will ski there for a long time. I will be focusing on Peak Resorts, like Snow, the Tash, and the Crotch for my skiing dollars.

You should consider some of the independent areas if you're going to spread out your skiing dollars - such as Sugarbush, MRG, Wildcat, Gunstock, etc. Much more character. Peak will certainly have good base depths on their snowmaking trails.

 

[millerm277]

come on. You mean to say the sole reason your family chose killington is the fact that you can ski down to rt 4 on a tuesday or wednesday?

No, but it's one of the important reasons, as it's what I essentially learned to ski on, without it, Killington doesn't have much in beginner terrain that is actually useful for beginners. Snowshed always bored me, and on the cold days, being warm in the gondola compared to getting wind whipped in my face on the lift, kept me skiing a lot longer, and kept everyone much happier. (And yes, we are/were usually up midweek, or for a full week).

Or the fact that you can ski the glades area in mid november? there are plenty of other early season options, well as early as killington by a couple of days, that offer equal or better terrain.

The late season is more important, we always go up for BMMC or Spring Loaded, and another time or two afterward, and everyone usually has a great time. In addition to that, it actually made them stand out, as it was the only place where we could go up in April and still expect to have something for everyone to ski, and we could plan to go up in Mid-December and know they would be at least open.

Bottom line, if they would stay open, even if it was only weekends the last month, till mid may almost all of their other decisions would probably be forgotten once the snow flies.

Here's what would get their screw-ups to be forgiven by most in my opinion:

Run Lower Skyeship every day from opening until at least March 1st. (After that, I could understand not running it all the time.). Also, when Skyeship isn't running....find a way to add the condo's/houses there to the shuttle route (you could probably even get them to pay for part of the cost).

Bring the kids program rates back down to about the same as their competitors.

Make snow whenever you can starting the second week or so of November, this has been discussed a bit on K-zone as well, but they could probably get a much cheaper and easier opening if they started over in the Superstar area instead.

Stay open until at least May 1st. Get some events and such going, so people show up (although, last year...they filled KBL's lots and most of Vale every weekend without doing anything to draw people in).

Forgotten by the majority i should say, obviously the kids pricing is gonna still tick off that particular clientele and condo owners affected by skyeship may not be so forgiving either.

And lets not forget the former lifetime passholders, along with the employees who were fired. All told....they've angered a sizeable number of people at this point, and after others learn of the changes over the course of the season, and Killington could stand to lose a sizeable number of visits (especially if they don't at least open the Skyeship for the massive numbers of Brits that come over a week or two after Pres. Week).

 

[Beartrap]

You should consider some of the independent areas if you're going to spread out your skiing dollars - such as Sugarbush, MRG, Wildcat, Gunstock, etc. Much more character. Peak will certainly have good base depths on their snowmaking trails.

I would consider them but I take day trips skiing and Killington usually pushes the day trip drive from RI as it is. I usually went on a Tuesday or Wednesday and parked down on RT 4 because it cut some travel time.

 

[MikeTrainor]

It'll be interesting to look back at these threads in 5 years.

It will, if you piss people off things will catch up with you. Look at ASC's marketing 10 years ago, they were the biggest, best in the east. Then people realize what is really going on, places get dumpy and you lose visits. It it wasn't for the cheap passes the last few years I doubt a lot of people would have gone to those resorts. Some companies that bought the resorts are creating excitement to get people back there, others are pushing people away thinking they will be successful anyways. I would really like to look at this 5 years from now. I just don't think you can take a western philosophy in the North East, I could be wrong...

 

[Highway Star]

It will, if you piss people off things will catch up with you. Look at ASC's marketing 10 years ago, they were the biggest, best in the east. Then people realize what is really going on, places get dumpy and you lose visits. It it wasn't for the cheap passes the last few years I doubt a lot of people would have gone to those resorts. Some companies that bought the resorts are creating excitement to get people back there, others are pushing people away thinking they will be successful anyways. I would really like to look at this 5 years from now. I just don't think you can take a western philosophy in the North East, I could be wrong...

Killington's going to see ~500,000 skier visits this year. Mt. Snow and Okemo are going to beat them in visits......is that good for them? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

[threecy]

Killington's going to see ~500,000 skier visits this year. Mt. Snow and Okemo are going to beat them in visits......is that good for them? Somehow, I doubt it.

If the 500k are paying more and costing them less, it's definitely worth it. Profit is not the name of the game - profit MARGIN is. So long as they can cover their overhead etc. with less customers, they win short term.

They invest like they said in the AZ Challenge and become #1 again with a higher margin per skier, they win long term too.

Still way too early to make any conclusions.

 

[deadheadskier]

If the 500k are paying more and costing them less, it's definitely worth it. Profit is not the name of the game - profit MARGIN is.

I definitely disagree with this statement. Unless an operator is an absolute moron at running a businees, there is NO WAY a resort will make more money catering to 500K skiers than they would catering to 750K skiers. The incremental income that those extra 250K skiers will generate will easily off set an increases in operating expenditures necesitated by them.


Remember, you deposit dollars in the bank. You can't deposit percentages/margins.

Time will tell, but I really feel that it is far too late in the game for Killington to re-invent itself. Being the beast was it's competitive advantage.

 

[threecy]

I definitely disagree with this statement. Unless an operator is an absolute moron at running a businees, there is NO WAY a resort will make more money catering to 500K skiers than they would catering to 750K skiers. The incremental income that those extra 250K skiers will generate will easily off set an increases in operating expenditures necesitated by them.


Remember, you deposit dollars in the bank. You can't deposit percentages/margins.

Time will tell, but I really feel that it is far too late in the game for Killington to re-invent itself. Being the beast was it's competitive advantage.

A 33% decline in skier visits would certainly be a challenge to overcome. That said, again if they can increase their profit margin while still covering their overhead, it's not necessarily a bad idea. The 500k number is probably a bad example...but let's just say they lost 100k more skier visits (which isn't hard to believe, considering they won't have as many of the A41 skiers on their slopes). If they can cut costs at a larger proportion vs. loss of income, they come out ahead in the short term.

If they can then use the higher profit margin to allow them to make smart investment choices over the next few years, they'll see their skier visits rebound at a higher profit margin than they had in recent years.

Sometimes you have to go back to the basics and fix the product before you can see it sell well again.