KILLINGTON/PICO: AZ Challenge 2007 Response/Feedback Thread

[millerm277]

I've heard POWDR has 80% interest in the resort and E2M/SP Land has 20%. POWDR also has some minor interest in the real estate.

Assuming that's correct, there's got to be a hell of a lot of tension there these days. I can't imagine E2M/SP Land is at all happy with anything Powdr is doing...

 

[threecy]

Sox are on commercial so I don't have much time, but in regards to the snowmaking system, a complete fix or a complete overhaul in one off season, especially for an area of their size, is not realistic. As long as they have the main pipelines going, it doesn't make sense to dump tens of thousands of dollars into replacing spurs that are only used a few days a year - if they intend to rework the entire system in the near future. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of their snowmaking system, but if its anything similar to their trails or lifts, its likely a but cluttered to say the least. Just like with the lift system, they likely need to go back and rework the main arteries before they deal with the lesser used spurs.

It'll be interesting to see if they consider a roll out of fan guns in the future - if they do, it changes the entire system and the way it's currently designed/used.

 

[threecy]

Assuming that's correct, there's got to be a hell of a lot of tension there these days. I can't imagine E2M/SP Land is at all happy with anything Powdr is doing...

I don't think its as bad as people here think...for a larger company based in a different part of the country, they're not going to be as concerned with local thoughts (for a destination resort), and certainly not with stuff seen on internet forums.

If Killington was getting this treatment in a wide-scale fashion in the NYC press, that'd be a different story.

 

[millerm277]

I don't think its as bad as people here think...for a larger company based in a different part of the country, they're not going to be as concerned with local thoughts (for a destination resort), and certainly not with stuff seen on internet forums.

I was more referring to the fact that the more of these decisions Powdr makes, the less likely it is that the K selectboard is going to let them build anything unless forced, and the worse the real estate market in Killington is going to get. E2M/SP Land obviously are just here to build the village, they were probably hoping that Powdr would put a bunch of money in, and they'd get their permits easily, sell it easily, and get out.

It'll be interesting to see if they consider a roll out of fan guns in the future - if they do, it changes the entire system and the way it's currently designed/used.

I know they've tested out a few in the past, and were reportedly happy with them. I don't think that it would be worth it to ever cover large parts of the mountain with them, but they would probably be great around the base areas, and on some of the super high-traffic stuff.

 

[threecy]

I know they've tested out a few in the past, and were reportedly happy with them. I don't think that it would be worth it to ever cover large parts of the mountain with them, but they would probably be great around the base areas, and on some of the super high-traffic stuff.

I think you'd probably see fan guns on Bear, Superstar, the Canyon, and possibly Ram's Head...that'd be a very expensive proposition, but it would certainly be a consideration...one would think they'd consider buying a bunch of carriage mounts and trying them out the new SMI towers.

 

[millerm277]

If Killington was getting this treatment in a wide-scale fashion in the NYC press, that'd be a different story.

It may be starting to get out to the average skiers, according to Rogman, this is in the latest (November) issue of Ski Magazine.

Lifetime Passes---Or Until We Cancel Them
Killington skiers, long weary of delayed improvements cheered when Utah-based Powdr Corp. purchased the Vermont resort. But the new owners...didn't hear cheers when they announced they'll no longer accept lifetime passes granted to people who invested $1,000 in Preston Smith's new resort in 1958. Subsequent Killington owners had honored the passes...
... Powdr has announced plans for expansions and upgrades, but they've also laid off employees, increased prices and decided to close the lifts in April, bringing an end to the East's longest ski season. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders has called for a U.S. Dept of Labor probe into the layoffs. And the locals will be a little gruffer--if that's possible-- in the liftlines this year.

 

[mountainman]

SMI Pole cats are a no brainer.

I think you'd probably see fan guns on Bear, Superstar, the Canyon, and possibly Ram's Head...that'd be a very expensive proposition, but it would certainly be a consideration...one would think they'd consider buying a bunch of carriage mounts and trying them out the new SMI towers.

With the amount of water Killington has it's a no brainer. Fans guns are the way to go, look at all the bananna belt resorts. FAN GUNS Hello. Auto mated systems. Cut down on wages and staff for snomaking. Look at Wisp in Maryland. Takes about 5 snomakers a shift. Hit a few buttons 150 guns come on, computers in guns set the settings. HELLO. Enough ced.

 

[millerm277]

With the amount of water Killington has it's a no brainer. Fans guns are the way to go, look at all the bananna belt resorts. FAN GUNS Hello. Auto mated systems. Cut down on wages and staff for snomaking. Look at Wisp in Maryland. Takes about 5 snomakers a shift. Hit a few buttons 150 guns come on, computers in guns set the settings. HELLO. Enough ced.

The main problem with that is the cost. Trying to outfit the entire mountain with fan guns would cost an insane amount of money.

However, a good strategy in my opinion would be to put automated fan guns in the base areas, along with along some of the supertrails and high-traffic intersections. Put automated towers over most of the main trails that see a lot of snowmaking. (They've got manual towers already over a lot of the main stuff, but more are needed, of the high-output and automated variety)

Leave the portable, manual guns for the trails that aren't crucial to make snow on and don't always see snowmaking, or only see snowmaking once during the season. (Like Falls Brook).

 

[threecy]

An automated fan gun system is by NO means cheap - in fact there is not a full blown automated fan gun system at any mid-sized or large ski area in New England (not even Crotched). The hydrants alone for one of those systems are thousands.

Covering Killington completely in fan guns (not even automated) would come at a price tag larger than it was recently purchased for.

 

[threecy]

It may be starting to get out to the average skiers, according to Rogman, this is in the latest (November) issue of Ski Magazine.

I may be kicking a sleeping bear here, but the average skier doesn't subscribe to Ski Magazone

 

[Highway Star]

I don't think its as bad as people here think...for a larger company based in a different part of the country, they're not going to be as concerned with local thoughts (for a destination resort), and certainly not with stuff seen on internet forums.

If Killington was getting this treatment in a wide-scale fashion in the NYC press, that'd be a different story.

ROFL.....I'm glad the "industry rep" doesn't care about PR and image.

Just about everybody and there mother has heard about Killington's bad rap this year. Either through the internet or word of mouth. Casual skiers talk to the diehards and get a clue about what is going on. It's also pretty damn easy to do a google search on "killington forum" and find out what's going on.

Be even disregarding that, people will take a look at two things and decide for themselves. The amount of terrrain and lifts running when they want to go skiing, and the PRICES. Then they will decide where to ski.

I think it's hilarious that you think that the average skier is simply a moron. Sure they may be a terminal intermediate and a huge gaper, but they are typically intelligent, professional people. Where do they get to money to go skiing? In fact, most of them are better paid and smarter than you........and the rest of the ski industry on average, while we're at it!!!! You can take you ski industry ego and shove it!!!

People are NOT stupid...they know a good experience, service, and value when they see it.

 

[millerm277]

I may be kicking a sleeping bear here, but the average skier doesn't subscribe to Ski Magazone

Ah, but neither do people that typically post here. It's often those rich skiers...such as the ones that vote for Okemo for best ski area because of it's grooming. The same group Killington has said it wants...

 

[threecy]

ROFL.....I'm glad the "industry rep" doesn't care about PR and image.

I never said that. I'm simply trying to present an alternate side to what otherwise is an all-out Killington/SP/Powdr flame fest around here.

Just about everybody and there mother has heard about Killington's bad rap this year. Either through the internet or word of mouth. Casual skiers talk to the diehards and get a clue about what is going on. It's also pretty damn easy to do a google search on "killington forum" and find out what's going on.

I think you're overestimating this. You'd be surprised how many people don't even know Killington was sold.

Be even disregarding that, people will take a look at two things and decide for themselves. The amount of terrrain and lifts running when they want to go skiing, and the PRICES. Then they will decide where to ski.

Firstly, I count three things there, not two. Secondly, other than things like the A41 pass, I don't think most people choose Killington based upon prices. Even with the announced closures during the week, Killington still has more terrain and lifts than pretty much anyone else in the east (depending upon what other areas are running at that time).

I think it's hilarious that you think that the average skier is simply a moron.

I think it's hilarious that you basically think anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.

In fact, most of them are better paid and smarter than you........and the rest of the ski industry on average, while we're at it!!!! You can take you ski industry ego and shove it!!!

Nice words, thank you. By the way, I don't make my living from the ski industry.

People are NOT stupid...they know a good experience, service, and value when they see it.

That is correct.

 

[threecy]

Ah, but neither do people that typically post here. It's often those rich skiers...such as the ones that vote for Okemo for best ski area because of it's grooming. The same group Killington has said it wants...

Okemo has certainly captured a lot of people in Killington's market - and has been doing so for years. My point is that the ski magazine industry is not as heavily read or powerful as some people think it is.

 

[Highway Star]

I never said that. I'm simply trying to present an alternate side to what otherwise is an all-out Killington/SP/Powdr flame fest around here.


I think you're overestimating this. You'd be surprised how many people don't even know Killington was sold.


Firstly, I count three things there, not two. Secondly, other than things like the A41 pass, I don't think most people choose Killington based upon prices. Even with the announced closures during the week, Killington still has more terrain and lifts than pretty much anyone else in the east (depending upon what other areas are running at that time).


I think it's hilarious that you basically think anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.



Nice words, thank you. By the way, I don't make my living from the ski industry.


That is correct.

Why don't you say something of value, instaid of just the constant spewing? You just argue for the sake of arguement, and never really have a point. Learn what you're talking about, and stop wasting everyone's time.

People who don't ski Killington might not know the resort was sold. Everybody else, who skis there more than two days a year, has probably figured it out by now....probably because the LACK of ASC. People can look at the website and figure it out....DUH! IF not, they'll be figuring out out shortly.

HOW do you know that people don't know??? Do you just as strangers off the street, who don't actaully ski???

 

[threecy]

Why don't you say something of value, instaid of just the constant spewing?

You sir are the one who resorts to name calling and insults. Whether or not you agree with the points I make, I feel they add an alternate side to the discussion.

HOW do you know that people don't know??? Do you just as strangers off the street, who don't actaully ski???

Friends, friends of friends, some seasonal people who work at ski areas, hikers I meet, etc. I've been in Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine in recent weeks and have talked to skiers and non skiers. While many do know Killington was sold, a bunch do not. An interesting side point - showing the power of word of mouth - more know that Mt. Snow was sold and that Peak is investing heavily in snowmaking there.

Am I saying that's a scientific study? No. However, it is really important to know that AZ and the Killington forums are not representative of all skiers in New England, but rather a subset. A majority of New England skiers do not have accounts on AlpineZone, SnowJournal, etc. Diehards do.

 

[Highway Star]

You sir are the one who resorts to name calling and insults. Whether or not you agree with the points I make, I feel they add an alternate side to the discussion.



Friends, friends of friends, some seasonal people who work at ski areas, hikers I meet, etc. I've been in Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine in recent weeks and have talked to skiers and non skiers. While many do know Killington was sold, a bunch do not. An interesting side point - showing the power of word of mouth - more know that Mt. Snow was sold and that Peak is investing heavily in snowmaking there.

Am I saying that's a scientific study? No. However, it is really important to know that AZ and the Killington forums are not representative of all skiers in New England, but rather a subset. A majority of New England skiers do not have accounts on AlpineZone, SnowJournal, etc. Diehards do.

I insult you because you're a clown who deserves to be insulted. Your posts typically lack factual basis and good reasoning, and yet you arrogantly spew on and on and on.....yikes. You deserve exactly what you get from me. People have PM'd me about you, so I know exactly who I'm dealing with.

Plus you have "industry rep" by your name (with that silly karate-kid picture). People casually reading this board might mistakenly think you know what you're talking about...that would be bad.

Non-skiing hikers in MA, NH, and ME don't know Killington was sold??? IMAGINE THAT?!?! How many actual KILLINGTON SKIERS did you encounter in your travels? What did they know? Christ.....

Here's a suggestion for you, buddy. Just quit talking about Killington. You don't have a horse in this race. You don't ski there, you don't have any friends there. You don't have a stake in the deal because you simply don't spend your time and money there. And you are ill-informed about it, to boot. So JUST STOP TALKING ABOUT IT............mmmkay? PLEASE!!!!!

THANKS, bu-bye.......!!!!!

 

[rachelv]

I don't want to get into a whole thing here, but I agree that the word hasn't spread quite as far as some people think it has. One of our good friends who we ski Killington with 10+ days per season, a guy who skis about 30 days a year total, didn't even know that Killington was sold until I mentioned it to him.

Yes, a lot of the "hard core" eastern skiers know, everyone who owns property there knows. But a lot of the weekends-only crowd, a lot of the people who skied enough for an ASC bronze pass but not enough for a pass this year - they just don't know. It's not because they're "morons", it's just because they don't spend their free time reading ski forums, and they're not close enough to read the local press.

Does any of this matter? Who knows? I'm just anxious for the season to start already so we can start basing this whole debate on facts instead of speculation.

 

[threecy]

I insult you because you're a clown who deserves to be insulted. Your posts typically lack factual basis and good reasoning, and yet you arrogantly spew on and on and on.....yikes. You deserve exactly what you get from me. People have PM'd me about you, so I know exactly who I'm dealing with.

From the previous threads where you've said stuff along these lines, you've never actually listed out matters of which you think I'm wrong, other than matters of how Killington is seen by other people.

Plus you have "industry rep" by your name (with that silly karate-kid picture). People casually reading this board might mistakenly think you know what you're talking about...that would be bad.

I've never actually taken karate, nor have I seen those films, just to clarify (photo was taken jumping off a small cliff on Mt. Monadnock). I have 10 years of industry experience in different capacities. If you wish to take this discussion off the boards, I'm more than happy to answer your questions.

Non-skiing hikers in MA, NH, and ME don't know Killington was sold??? IMAGINE THAT?!?! How many actual KILLINGTON SKIERS did you encounter in your travels? What did they know? Christ.....

See, here's one of the reasons why we seem to be butting heads. I said "Friends, friends of friends, some seasonal people who work at ski areas, hikers I meet, etc. I've been in Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine in recent weeks and have talked to skiers and non skiers." You derived from that, "Non-skiing hikers in MA, NH, and ME."

And for the record, amongst the people included in my statement (not the one you derived from it), there are people who have primary and vacation homes (New Yorkers) within about half an hour from Killington. Most of them knew, but not all. All were skiers/boarders, however.

Here's a suggestion for you, buddy. Just quit talking about Killington. You don't have a horse in this race. You don't ski there, you don't have any friends there. You don't have a stake in the deal because you simply don't spend your time and money there. And you are ill-informed about it, to boot. So JUST STOP TALKING ABOUT IT............mmmkay? PLEASE!!!!!

THANKS, bu-bye.......!!!!!

I intend to continue discussing it so long as there are points I can add to the discussion. It's important in these threads to keep some alternate view points alive, as otherwise it turns into a mob scene. No one benefits from that.

If this thread continues in this direction, i.e. you bashing me and throwing it into the gutter, I will stop responding to your posts, just as I did in an earlier thread.

 

[Highway Star]

From the previous threads where you've said stuff along these lines, you've never actually listed out matters of which you think I'm wrong, other than matters of how Killington is seen by other people.



I've never actually taken karate, nor have I seen those films, just to clarify (photo was taken jumping off a small cliff on Mt. Monadnock). I have 10 years of industry experience in different capacities. If you wish to take this discussion off the boards, I'm more than happy to answer your questions.



See, here's one of the reasons why we seem to be butting heads. I said "Friends, friends of friends, some seasonal people who work at ski areas, hikers I meet, etc. I've been in Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine in recent weeks and have talked to skiers and non skiers." You derived from that, "Non-skiing hikers in MA, NH, and ME."

And for the record, amongst the people included in my statement (not the one you derived from it), there are people who have primary and vacation homes (New Yorkers) within about half an hour from Killington. Most of them knew, but not all. All were skiers/boarders, however.



I intend to continue discussing it so long as there are points I can add to the discussion. It's important in these threads to keep some alternate view points alive, as otherwise it turns into a mob scene. No one benefits from that.

If this thread continues in this direction, i.e. you bashing me and throwing it into the gutter, I will stop responding to your posts, just as I did in an earlier thread.

OOoooo.....again, you have little to nothing of value to say.

Just give Killington a rest.....there's plenty of other things for you spew about. Please. You DO NOT have a valid point of view.

Did you check out my avatar....? Now I have a really cool Karate Kid picture too....