Killington Rumor?

[SpinmasterK]

I'm right here!
It is currently 52 degrees at the base of K-1 at 9 a.m. and forecast looks somewhat more favorable for snowmaking this weekend into next week. However, it's just a forecast!

 

[RootDKJ]

Awesome Spinmaster! I appreciate you giving us a forecast.
Keep us posted if you can!

 

[JerseyJoey]

Thank you spinmaster. I also have a question for you if you have the time to answer.

How many days of continuos snowmaking does it take Killington to open up a trail(s) for lift serviced skiing and riding? Thank you.

 

[Greg]

Thank you spinmaster. I also have a question for you if you have the time to answer.

How many days of continuos snowmaking does it take Killington to open up a trail(s) for lift serviced skiing and riding? Thank you.

[post="120509"]36-60 hours.[/post]

 

[JerseyJoey]

[post="120509"]36-60 hours.[/post]

Thanks Greg. That post was from 2 years ago though. Has snowmaking technology and snowmaking equipment advanced enough over the last 2 years to lessen that 36 to 60 hour window to something shorter?

I know that Killington now likes to open with top to bottom skiing and riding as opposed to the old days of midstation skiing/riding followed by downloading to get back to the base area when you're done making turns. Is this still the case? (Opening top to bottom).

Thank you for your answer.

 

[Highway Star]

[post="120509"]36-60 hours.[/post]

That's very vague and inaccurate answer. It may be true that 36-60 hours provides enogh snowmaking to open ONE trail, but that's only part of the picture.

Spinmaster is stating that in the context that in Nov. '06, they had already made a sizeable amount of snow on the upper part of the mountain. What they had left was to go from the bottom of the North Ridge Triple down to the bottom of the K-1. That proved very difficult in '06, because they didn't open until Thanksgiving.

Overall, they need to make around 100-150 acre feet of snow to open on the K-1/Northridge/Snowdon with about 16-18 "trails" - one main route down the mountain with a few side options.

At full power Killington's snow making system pumps more than 720,000 gallons of water an hour to 240 snow guns that cover a massive 80 acres with 12 inches of fresh snow.

That's their claimed capacity - 80 acre feet in a 24 hour period. However, I don't believe all the pump houses can be focused on one part of the mountain at once. Thus, they can probably only do about half that on the trails for their opening, or 40 acre feet maximum. If you start getting above 20F wet bulb, water flow must also drop off dramatically, cutting into production even further....in marginal temps they can probably do 10-20 acre feet per day on the terrain in question.

Given the above information, I estimate that it takes, realisticly, anywhere from 72 hours (@ below 20F wet bulb) up to 150+ hours (@ 26F-28F WB) to get to their standard opening. However, they simply would not run the system for 150 hours at those temps because the cost in compressed air would be immense. The reality is that they will typically make snow at night, over the course of a solid week, before opening. This also means that they NEED a solid weather window with low temps for an extended period of time, otherwise they simply won't open.

Nov. 2006 was a perfect example of how Killington snowmaking can be effected by weather. They started making snow right around Nov. 1, and made about $100k of snow at the top of the mountain. Weather got warm and some (most?) of it melted over the next few weeks. They were able to start making snow down to the K-1 Sunday before Thanksgiving, and opened on Thanksgiving day, after 72+ hours of snowmaking.

 

[skiadikt]

Thanks Greg. That post was from 2 years ago though. Has snowmaking technology and snowmaking equipment advanced enough over the last 2 years to lessen that 36 to 60 hour window to something shorter?

I know that Killington now likes to open with top to bottom skiing and riding as opposed to the old days of midstation skiing/riding followed by downloading to get back to the base area when you're done making turns. Is this still the case? (Opening top to bottom).

Thank you for your answer.

the opening is top-to-bottom. that 36-60 hr (quoted while the mtn was still run by asc) is probably a little on the light side given how much terrain they want/need to open for a top-to-bottom opening on a "quality" product. i'm guessing they'd probably like a solid 5-7 day window to blow snow, let it set up and then groom it out.

 

[Highway Star]

Thanks Greg. That post was from 2 years ago though. Has snowmaking technology and snowmaking equipment advanced enough over the last 2 years to lessen that 36 to 60 hour window to something shorter?

I know that Killington now likes to open with top to bottom skiing and riding as opposed to the old days of midstation skiing/riding followed by downloading to get back to the base area when you're done making turns. Is this still the case? (Opening top to bottom).

Thank you for your answer.

1. No, the tech has not improved much except they are now using fan guns in the base areas and have pluged some leaky pipes. Call it a 5-10% improvement.

2. Expect a top to bottom opening on the K-1, plus the north ridge triple and snowdon triple and poma. This has proven very difficult and prone to bad weather.

There are easier/eariler opening strategies they could persue, but seem to refuse so far:

- Using the superstar trail pod to open, much less snowmaking needed.
- Trucking to up/down loading on the canyon quad
- Installing a temporary handle tow on upper downdraft, using the K-1 for up and down loading, with skiing off the North ridge triple.
- Another upper mountain lift returing to the K-1 top.

 

[Greg]

That's very vague and inaccurate answer. It may be true that 36-60 hours provides enogh snowmaking to open ONE trail, but that's only part of the picture.

Spinmaster is stating that in the context that in Nov. '06, they had already made a sizeable amount of snow on the upper part of the mountain. What they had left was to go from the bottom of the North Ridge Triple down to the bottom of the K-1. That proved very difficult in '06, because they didn't open until Thanksgiving.

That's right. They already did have a jump on snowmaking at the higher elevations. I forgot about that. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[powhunter]

I'm right here!
It is currently 52 degrees at the base of K-1 at 9 a.m. and forecast looks somewhat more favorable for snowmaking this weekend into next week. However, it's just a forecast!

hey are you gonna blow the &*$##@ out of superstar this year and stay open till june??

steve

 

[Greg]

- Using the superstar trail pod to open, much less snowmaking needed.

Lower elevation but a good aspect facing almost directly north, precisely why it made a great spring option. It would be interesting to know whether it takes as long to go T2B from the summit to KBL via Snowdon as it would to make Superstar skiable.

- Trucking to up/down loading on the canyon quad

We all know the trucking days are long gone. Too much liability. Maybe they could pave the road. :lol: Is the Canyon quad fixed grip? I can't remember.

- Installing a temporary handle tow on upper downdraft, using the K-1 for up and down loading, with skiing off the North ridge triple.
- Another upper mountain lift returing to the K-1 top.

Two interesting suggestions that I know you've been mentioning for a long time. I think the bottom line is does it make sense to alter the lift infrastructure in such a way to accomodate a few weeks of additional skiing early season? I can't imagine the ROI makes it worthwhile.

The most logical and cost effective way of extending Killington's season is to do it at the tail end and to revisit the Superstar glacier approach in the spring.

 

[Greg]

hey are you gonna blow the &*$##@ out of superstar this year and stay open till june??

steve

Baby steps. How about asking for "till May"?

 

[Highway Star]

One last quick point......

Given the weather fluctuations of the last few years and historically, they could in theory open as early as October 24th and as late as December 6th this year....less than 1% likelyhood on either of those dates, but still completely possible.

However, I think there's at least a 50% chance they will open on November 14th.

 

[Highway Star]

Lower elevation but a good aspect facing almost directly north, precisely why it made a great spring option. It would be interesting to know whether it takes as long to go T2B from the summit to KBL via Snowdon as it would to make Superstar skiable.



We all know the trucking days are long gone. Too much liability. Maybe they could pave the road. :lol: Is the Canyon quad fixed grip? I can't remember.



Two interesting suggestions that I know you've been mentioning for a long time. I think the bottom line is does it make sense to alter the lift infrastructure in such a way to accomodate a few weeks of additional skiing early season? I can't imagine the ROI makes it worthwhile.

The most logical and cost effective way of extending Killington's season is to do it at the tail end and to revisit the Superstar glacier approach in the spring.

- Not superstar, but the superstar trail pod. Most likely Skyelark. Then expanding up to the K-1 and down to snowshed.

- Yes, trucking probably won't happen, and it's not any fun either.

- There is nothing expensive or difficult about putting a handle tow on upper downdraft. The length would be 400 ft with a 100 ft vertical drop...not any worse than a halfpipe rope tow. Up and downloading on the K-1, with skiing off the glades triple. There are variations on this theme, with the possibly of a poma lift or small double chair serving a very small trail pod consisting of the trails above the Great Northern crossover around Downdraft. Anywhere from $20k to $200k

- The more expensive options are a lift on Downdraft from roughly the old midstation location, up to the K-1, or possibly even a midstaion terminal on the K-1. Around $500k to $1m.

ROI? Well, if you're consistantly open 2-3 weeks before anyone else, or have the only skiing over thanksgiving weekend in a bad snow/weather year, I'm quite sure there is money to be made. The energy savings over the K-1 T-B opening are also quite signifigant. IMHO, there is more demand for early season skiing than late season. Not to mention the draw of season pass holders, who used to choose Killington for its longer season.

There's also the option of installing an IDE snowmaking system and offering skiing on the peak year round.

 

[andyzee]

hey are you gonna blow the &*$##@ out of superstar this year and stay open till june??

steve

I second that, screw the baby steps.

 

[mister moose]

The most logical and cost effective way of extending Killington's season is to do it at the tail end and to revisit the Superstar glacier approach in the spring.

I'd agree with that. Would you like a T-shirt? ;-)

 

[Greg]

I'd agree with that. Would you like a T-shirt? ;-)

Yes. One with a big "O" for Obvious.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I'd agree with that. Would you like a T-shirt? ;-)

I want a shirt that says "I survived Outer Limits"...LMBFAO..then everybody in Jersey would know I'm legit..

 

[skiing is life]

the new ownersof killington can bite me:uzi:, how can powdr screw the resort that badly by opening in late november and closing in mid april. All for just a god damn profit. Killington was the only resort in the east that rivaled the western ones. It always took a stand to sometimes even open before the western resorts. k im gonna stop before i get into a senseless rant.

 

[millerm277]

Lower elevation but a good aspect facing almost directly north, precisely why it made a great spring option. It would be interesting to know whether it takes as long to go T2B from the summit to KBL via Snowdon as it would to make Superstar skiable.

Rough numbers from Google Earth:

Great Northern (from top) to Lower Bunny Buster is 2.00 miles.
Superstar is 0.57 miles.
Skyelark>High Road>Lower Bittersweet is 0.90 miles.

However, you do have to factor in lower temps at the top, and the fact that the trails in the Superstar area are much wider. (Which would also probably make for better skiing, with a HSQ instead of a gondola, and a wider trail....)