Let's Talk About Killington

[snowman]

No need, I'll just end it. I was going to wait for snowman's response, but I don't want to waste anymore of my time even though it probably not as valuable as snowman's which he already pointed out :lol:

Snowman - give it up. Seriously, you are looking more and more like Jean Van de Velde at the British open five years back


You're arguement concerning SEC filings, accounting conspiracy et al is mute. It's obvious that ASC wanted to make ALL of the resorts look good for sale, not just killington.

You're condescending attitude and strong affrimation that the averge Joe doesn't know the difference between a regular quad and a high speed one, though it has some validity, was pretty darn classless and did little to back up your arguement.

I think everyone could probably care less about the THREE tax evading business's you own and how you buy your lawyers and accountants cars to avoid paying the tax. Even though you'd happily pay it if your country's tax code was better :rollseyes:

Cutting down Greg - never a good move

Doing whatever you could to argue against me regarding my simple point that resorts can invest during recessions and be succesful. Yes you conceded some to me, but still did what you could to build yourself up on your stance that the ONLY way for Killington to operate now is to do so sans investment. You did so by mis-statements regarding the mountains, reaching out west, wherever you could go, even though history shows what I said as my point to be exactly right.

Not knowing a lick about Stowe and their challenges and skier base, yet bashing their plan, which is pretty much a proven philosophy that every resort out there in the country is doing to increase market share, which is increase amenities and bed base - not good.

Calling everyone crazy for arguing with you for the simple point of arguing because you're either crazy or we're all too stoopit to share in your infanant knowledge of accounting, SEC filings and ski resort operations.


Face it big guy. Put the driver back in the bag, take out your three iron and aim for the fairway. Your slice right now is quickly taking on the status of legendary.

God dammit I hate poor people. They try to make themselves feel better about their poor lives by trying to make themselves seem like experts in online forums on things they've never even come close to experiencing. When you're actually involved in the money movement decisions in your own corporations, or have even done the days end at a ski resort, let me know. Then we'll "talk".

Yes, I am being condecending, now, because I've come to the realization I've spent a good portion of my day arguing with stupid people. Why am I calling you stupid? Because instead of agreeing with a fact or 2 you're arguing everything and even trying to change sides on things already pointed out to try and make yourselves seem right and myself wrong. This is going on due to a complete disinterest in the subject matter and complete interest in arguing everything I have to say no matter what. Now that I know what I'm dealing with here, I shall not make the same mistake again. Congratulations. I've lost. It was my goal to open and eye or 2 and teach the odd person in here that just because one resort is doing something, it doesn't mean it's the only way or the right way for another resort to go and why. But did you all really win? If you call going to bed as closed minded and stupid as you were when you got up this morning a victory, why yes, you have. Enjoy your prize! Eternal poverty.

 

[snoseek]

God dammit I hate poor people. They try to make themselves feel better about their poor lives by trying to make themselves seem like experts in online forums on things they've never even come close to experiencing. When you're actually involved in the money movement decisions in your own corporations, or have even done the days end at a ski resort, let me know. Then we'll "talk".

Yes, I am being condecending, now, because I've come to the realization I've spent a good portion of my day arguing with stupid people. Why am I calling you stupid? Because instead of agreeing with a fact or 2 you're arguing everything and even trying to change sides on things already pointed out to try and make yourselves seem right and myself wrong. This is going on due to a complete disinterest in the subject matter and complete interest in arguing everything I have to say no matter what. Now that I know what I'm dealing with here, I shall not make the same mistake again. Congratulations. I've lost. It was my goal to open and eye or 2 and teach the odd person in here that just because one resort is doing something, it doesn't mean it's the only way or the right way for another resort to go and why. But did you all really win? If you call going to bed as closed minded and stupid as you were when you got up this morning a victory, why yes, you have. Enjoy your prize! Eternal poverty.

I can't beleive this stuff your spewing. best entertainment since big vert.

 

[snowman]

P.S. I'll give a few of you the benefit of the doubt and consider the fact that you didn't even read my earlier statements on all of this in the locked mount snow thread, as you're asking me to explain things I've already explained once. Snoseek, This thread makes my head hurt too. Why? Because people other than myself twisted information around for their own purposes. Anyone reading it with good reading comprehension skills will get a headache because you comprehend one thing at one point, and then you have someone trying to say the opposite was said just 10 posts later. That's enough to make even the smartest of people get a headache.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

God dammit I hate poor people. They try to make themselves feel better about their poor lives by trying to make themselves seem like experts in online forums on things they've never even come close to experiencing. When you're actually involved in the money movement decisions in your own corporations, or have even done the days end at a ski resort, let me know. Then we'll "talk".

Yes, I am being condecending, now, because I've come to the realization I've spent a good portion of my day arguing with stupid people. Why am I calling you stupid? Because instead of agreeing with a fact or 2 you're arguing everything and even trying to change sides on things already pointed out to try and make yourselves seem right and myself wrong. This is going on due to a complete disinterest in the subject matter and complete interest in arguing everything I have to say no matter what. Now that I know what I'm dealing with here, I shall not make the same mistake again. Congratulations. I've lost. It was my goal to open and eye or 2 and teach the odd person in here that just because one resort is doing something, it doesn't mean it's the only way or the right way for another resort to go and why. But did you all really win? If you call going to bed as closed minded and stupid as you were when you got up this morning a victory, why yes, you have. Enjoy your prize! Eternal poverty.

What a tool...:uzi:

 

[trtaylor]

...I've come to the realization I've spent a good portion of my day arguing with stupid people. Why am I calling you stupid? Because instead of agreeing with a fact or 2 you're arguing everything and even trying to change sides on things already pointed out to try and make yourselves seem right and myself wrong. This is going on due to a complete disinterest in the subject matter and complete interest in arguing everything I have to say no matter what.

def. Insanity -- doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

 

[deadheadskier]

def. Insanity -- doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

exactly, hence th Jean Van de Velde reference



keep going snowman, this is getting more entertaining by the second. Considering you've checked my earnings records from last year and apparantly know how poor I am, care to offer some pointers on how I can stick it to Uncle Sam and keep a little extra of the little that I have for myself? I hear you're a real pro at it.

 

[pepperdawg]

this thread makes my head hurt.

words....so many words in this thread...

 

[millerm277]

Interesting...you STILL have not given any reason as to why K's numbers could be fake, so either admit you're wrong or produce something.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

deadhead, millerm277...thanks guys.
Snowman...trying to call me out as a woman...really classy, you just offended every woman on this forum...for the second time in this thread alone. I'm sure you'll tell us what a player you are with the ladies though. It seems the rest of us really are ignorant, impoverished and stupid:dunce::blink:...the entire rest of the world is inhabited by nit wits and you are the only intelligent, star thinker out there. No, really, its not you, its the rest of the world with the problem.:roll::lol:

 

[threecy]

It's a shame this thread has fallen into the gutter.

One can certainly question ski area numbers. Skier visits, for instance, is a guess at best for most ski areas (save for a Crotched type of operation) and provides no direct financial information (whereas, with a baseball ticket, one can measure sales accurately, season pass or day ticket).

Is there a way to precisely assign season pass numbers to each of the A41 mountains? No. There is most certainly some manual input involved. Was ASC violating SEC rules with how they assigned revenue? Not that I've heard.

 

[Highway Star]

Is there a way to precisely assign season pass numbers to each of the A41 mountains? No. There is most certainly some manual input involved. Was ASC violating SEC rules with how they assigned revenue? Not that I've heard.

ROFL..........

 

[2knees]

ROFL..........

care to expand on that once you get off the floor?

 

[snowman]

def. Insanity -- doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

I was going to post that exact definition earlier, as people here kept asking me to explain the same things that I'd already explained over and over so that they could simply just bend and twist them again. Not happening.

 

[snowman]

What a tool...:uzi:

That's the pot calling the kettle black. Why don't you just stick to insulting your nations veterans and other peoples flags and anthems.

 

[snowman]

Interesting...you STILL have not given any reason as to why K's numbers could be fake, so either admit you're wrong or produce something.

To do so would be insanity.

 

[snowman]

It's a shame this thread has fallen into the gutter.

One can certainly question ski area numbers. Skier visits, for instance, is a guess at best for most ski areas (save for a Crotched type of operation) and provides no direct financial information (whereas, with a baseball ticket, one can measure sales accurately, season pass or day ticket).

Is there a way to precisely assign season pass numbers to each of the A41 mountains? No. There is most certainly some manual input involved. Was ASC violating SEC rules with how they assigned revenue? Not that I've heard.

Thanks for the tepid support to the dying end. It took guts to stick your neck out on this one due to the nature of the people it attracted...

 

[Highway Star]

Wow....what a great thread. It's always fun to watch Threecry spew his ignorant BS. But Snowman is a treat....I was reading his post about snowmaking, and he seems to know something about that.......but boy oh boy does he not know jack squat about skiing in VT.

The only thing I'd like to address is the issue of terrain expansion at Killington and Stowe. To say these resorts are unable to be expanded is completely false. You are simply ignorant of the geography. Stowe has multiple barriers to expansion, but there are certainly available areas.

Killington, OTOH, has multiple options to expand terrain (DUH!!!)

- The interconnect, which when fully built out adds 4 lifts (in the original plan) with 200+ acres of trails. With the primary two lifts, it would be 100+ acres. IF they could go down to pico pond, it would be even bigger. However, the primary point is that PICO BECOMES PART OF KILLINGTON. So, instaid of having a 1000 acre resort next to a 200 acre resort, you have one BIG 1300+ acre resort, that is all ski accessable from the Killington Basin.

- The old lower sunrise area could be reopened, there is nothing stopping them from doing that.

- The top of rams head will get lift access from one of the interconnect lifts.

- There is a hill below needle eye that they were planning on running a lift to, for trailside real estate.

- Pico has plenty of areas for expansion.

- They could go up the hill above the current sunrise lift.

- If somehow they could get Parkers Gore back, or some land on the back side, they could go down to Mendon on the west side.

Overall, Killington could probably be built out to 2000+ acres. For really.

 

[MrMagic]

Wow....what a great thread. It's always fun to watch Threecry spew his ignorant BS. But Snowman is a treat....I was reading his post about snowmaking, and he seems to know something about that.......but boy oh boy does he not know jack squat about skiing in VT.

The only thing I'd like to address is the issue of terrain expansion at Killington and Stowe. To say these resorts are unable to be expanded is completely false. You are simply ignorant of the geography. Stowe has multiple barriers to expansion, but there are certainly available areas.

Killington, OTOH, has multiple options to expand terrain (DUH!!!)

- The interconnect, which when fully built out adds 4 lifts (in the original plan) with 200+ acres of trails. With the primary two lifts, it would be 100+ acres. IF they could go down to pico pond, it would be even bigger. However, the primary point is that PICO BECOMES PART OF KILLINGTON. So, instaid of having a 1000 acre resort next to a 200 acre resort, you have one BIG 1300+ acre resort, that is all ski accessable from the Killington Basin.

- The old lower sunrise area could be reopened, there is nothing stopping them from doing that.

- The top of rams head will get lift access from one of the interconnect lifts.

- There is a hill below needle eye that they were planning on running a lift to, for trailside real estate.

- Pico has plenty of areas for expansion.

- They could go up the hill above the current sunrise lift.

- If somehow they could get Parkers Gore back, or some land on the back side, they could go down to Mendon on the west side.

Overall, Killington could probably be built out to 2000+ acres. For really.

ugh i sure hope none of that happens, esp pico interconnect, i know alot of people will like to see it, but it would just destroy pico's classic NE trails and its charm.

 

[threecy]

Wow....what a great thread. It's always fun to watch Threecry spew his ignorant BS. But Snowman is a treat....I was reading his post about snowmaking, and he seems to know something about that.......but boy oh boy does he not know jack squat about skiing in VT.

I'm not here to brag about what I know. I'm just trying to add some points to an otherwise mob scene. Do I know as much about Killington as you seem to? I doubt it. I've been there maybe two dozen times, skied it three or four times, hiked it once. I do, however, have some knowledge about the ski industry. I do not think I've posted any BS about this topic. If, however, I said that this whole situation, from the business decision to the way it was handled PR-wise, was good, then yes one could accuse me of 'spewing ignorant BS.'

Other than with a Crotched Mountain season pass model, there is no precise way to nail down skier visit numbers. Season passes basically make this number a guestimate.

In terms of assigning A41 revenue to the eastern ski areas, again it takes some manual input. Do you simply recognize the passes where they were purchased? Do you recognize what the part time scanners say, then distribute the dollars on a percentage formula? Do you do a formula based upon skier visits (see above)? John Doe bought his pass at Attitash, skied 25% of the time at Killington, 50% of the time at Sunday River, and the other 25% of the time at Sugarloaf and Mt. Snow, never touching the slopes at Attitash. Do you split his pass dollars up on that percentage, or do you factor in the skier expense of each area, then weight that against his percentage - and even if you do that, how are you going to know exactly where every passholder skied and how many times? Manual intervention is needed. It's not a crime. That said, one could certainly (consciously or not) weight A41 revenue toward particular areas.

If you want to call that ignorant, be my guest. 10 years in the ski industry and a few years in global sales/financial reporting.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

It's a shame this thread has fallen into the gutter.

One can certainly question ski area numbers. Skier visits, for instance, is a guess at best for most ski areas (save for a Crotched type of operation) and provides no direct financial information (whereas, with a baseball ticket, one can measure sales accurately, season pass or day ticket).

Is there a way to precisely assign season pass numbers to each of the A41 mountains? No. There is most certainly some manual input involved. Was ASC violating SEC rules with how they assigned revenue? Not that I've heard.

threecy -

I''m not doubting that there was some "manual input" with respect to A41 pass revenue recognition. But you have to understand that the scenario the allegedly-departed (but miraculously returned) snowman has painted is not so simple. He has alleged the following:

1) ASC's primary motivation for creating the A41 program originally was to shift is taxable revenue to more tax-friendly jurisdictions.

There could be some truth to this insofar as I'm sure that was a consideration, but one would imagine that the primary motivation was always the the marketing angle of being able to truly leverage ASC's market-leading position in three key New England skiing geographical areas.

2) ASC switched gears mid-stream at some unspecified point in the past and started recognizing an outsize portion of A41 pass revenue at Killington, despite the potential negative taxi mpacts, in an effort to goose up the Killington top line so as to make it appear more profitable in advance of a sale.

snowman's ultimate point that that the $70MM plus purchase price of K-Mart doesn't indicate anything about its underlying profitability (generally 8-10x EBITDA) b/c ASC probably sexed up the numbers in advance of this sale. As such, POWDR would need time to determine what the financials actually looked like, should retrench wherever possible toc ut costs, and should hold off making any material commitments of capital dollars. There are multiple problems with this line of thinking. First, material changes in revenue recognition policies are a HUGE red flag for the regulatory authorities. A snot-nosed kid with only Accounting 101 would be able to sniff that out. If the SEC were too busy with other fish to fry, then the guys at POWDR would have to be asleep at the wheel to miss such an obvious scheme. If they or their accounting due diligence firm weren't able to detect it, well then that doesn't say much for their abilities as business owners in the first place. Moreover, the very notion that ASC manufactured profits at K-Mart to maximize its sale value flies in the face of the fact that Mt. Snow and Attitash sold for essentially the same price to Peaks. Why would ASC "steal" all this revenue from its other resorts and divert it to K-Mart when the return wasn't that great?

So snowman's logic breaks down in about 6 different places. There's really nothing to support his conspiracy theories, presumably born of the long, cold, lonely winters in Newfoundland. So in the absence of any compelling facts (well, I did gloss over his vast experience as a lift op or parking attendant or something), he has resorted to really pathetic name calling and then the ever-popular "I hate poor people". That's an instant internet classic!