Let's Talk About Killington

[Tin Woodsman]

It's a 110% valid comparison. Whistler and Revelstoke are in BC. They both cost the same amount for me to get to. Whistler is way more of a resort than Revelstoke (right now) and invests millions of dollars annually, but I'm interested in going to Revelstoke because it's new. It wouldn't matter if Whistler replaced 3 quads this year, it's still not new.

Is everyone here just arguing with me for the sake of wasting my time right now? These last 2 arguments don't even make any sense.

So Greg points out thatit's not valid to compare Killington to resorts out West, and you retort that it IS valid by spewing about the comparison between Revelstoke and Whistler? I think you need to check the dosage on whatever medications you are taking.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Only someone as condescending as you would immediately assume the average skier can't figure out the difference between an HSQ and a fixed grip quad. :roll: Perhaps I give the human race too much credit though.

:smash::smash:

Greg you took the words right out of my mouth...The main thing for Killington is to blow alot of snow..early and often..if they can do that I give them major props..and maybe just maybe..the new owners will extend the season into late April/May...never say never. It's all weather and crowd dependent.

 

[snowman]

So Greg points out thatit's not valid to compare Killington to resorts out West, and you retort that it IS valid by spewing about the comparison between Revelstoke and Whistler? I think you need to check the dosage on whatever medications you are taking.

Good lordy...nooooooooooo. We're not friggin comparing K to resorts out west, we're comparing spending at new resorts in a market to spending at established resorts in a market. K, Okemo and Sunday River were in the same market during the last recession and it was pointed out Sunday River and Okemo did gangbusters business in a recession by spending money. I pointed out that it was not because they were replacing lifts, it was because they were new and likely stealing business from places like K who were actually replacing lifts at the same time, but were most likely sitting flat business wise because they were not new new. I then agreed with this logic by pointing out that I may change my plans for going to Whistler in the BC market to going to Revelstoke in the BC market because Revelstoke is NEW NEW. Whistler probably spent more money this year than they are even spending at Revelstoke, but they're still not new new, and that is why I'm going and that is why comparing new new resort spending to renovation resort spending in a recession is not a good comparison. Man! Are you guys even reading this stuff before shooting off??? You want to argue the finer points of SEC filings with me but don't even seem to have reading comprehension covered?

 

[OldsnowboarderME]

What's an HSQ??.. Fixed Grip?.. Was it broken?? .. How come some lift move faster than others or should I say How come all lifts don't move at the same speed? How many legs does a lift chair have? It doesn't look like a chair more a bench to me... Somebody please help me ...:roll:

 

[deadheadskier]

Snowman, you need to get over yourself, you really do.

You are the one who is coming across as a condescending ahole who for some reason thinks that he is the authority on all things related to ski area marketing, operations and accounting. It is YOU who refuses to look at other people's point of view. You refute everything that anyone else has said and many of people's points were valid, including my own that a ski area can invest heavily during and economic downturn and be succesful at it. If Okemo and Sunday River in the early 90's don't fit your criteria because they were 'new', then fine the $400 million Stowe is investing right now during uncertain times might, but I doubt it. I'm sure you'll find some flaw in that arguement to.

 

[OldsnowboarderME]

Snowman, you need to get over yourself, you really do.

You are the one who is coming across as a condescending ahole who for some reason thinks that he is the authority on all things related to ski area marketing, operations and accounting. It is YOU who refuses to look at other people's point of view. You refute everything that anyone else has said and many of people's points were valid, including my own that a ski area can invest heavily during and economic downturn and be succesful at it. If Okemo and Sunday River in the early 90's don't fit your criteria because they were 'new', then fine the $400 million Stowe is investing right now during uncertain times might, but I doubt it. I'm sure you'll find some flaw in that arguement to.

Now I don't want snowman (flakeman) to get upset and leave .. we adjusted to GSS (Grilledcheesesandwich) presence .. well most of us have..

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Good lordy...nooooooooooo. We're not friggin comparing K to resorts out west, we're comparing spending at new resorts in a market to spending at established resorts in a market. K, Okemo and Sunday River were in the same market during the last recession and it was pointed out Sunday River and Okemo did gangbusters business in a recession by spending money. I pointed out that it was not because they were replacing lifts, it was because they were new and likely stealing business from places like K who were actually replacing lifts at the same time, but were most likely sitting flat business wise because they were not new new.

You need to listen to your own advice and do some more research before you rant. You're trying to say Okemo and Sunday River were NEW back in the 80s and 90s you're DECADES off...Sunday River was established in 1958...their 50th anniversary is right around the corner. Not sure when Okemo was est but I was skiing there in the mid 80s and the main lodge was old and crusty by then. You're critcizing everyone elses' arguments like you've got all the answers and speak with a great deal of conviction...too bad your "facts" are wrong.

 

[snowman]

Snowman, you need to get over yourself, you really do.

You are the one who is coming across as a condescending ahole who for some reason thinks that he is the authority on all things related to ski area marketing, operations and accounting. It is YOU who refuses to look at other people's point of view. You refute everything that anyone else has said and many of people's points were valid, including my own that a ski area can invest heavily during and economic downturn and be succesful at it. If Okemo and Sunday River in the early 90's don't fit your criteria because they were 'new', then fine the $400 million Stowe is investing right now during uncertain times might, but I doubt it. I'm sure you'll find some flaw in that arguement to.

Ummm, You're the only person who's said anything here that I stepped back and said, hey, he's right. Mind you, you were not completely right and you agreed somewhat with my analasis of why your point contained a whole different set of variables compared to spending money at K right now. Dumping money into something brand new during an economic downturn - can work. Renovating something that already exists? Bad idea. Constructive argument that we both came away from with a higher level of thinking. That's what we got out of that. That's what I'm interested in here. Now there's people (including the site owner of all people) turning constructive arguments into a bunch of stupidity by seemingly not even understanding what we were talking about and name calling. Now that IS stupidity and is NOT what I'm interested in. If people want to act stupid, I will be condescending. I'm not going to act stupid along with them.

 

[snowman]

You need to listen to your own advice and do some more research before you rant. You're trying to say Okemo and Sunday River were NEW back in the 80s and 90s you're DECADES off...Sunday River was established in 1958...their 50th anniversary is right around the corner. Not sure when Okemo was est but I was skiing there in the mid 80s and the main lodge was old and crusty by then. You're critcizing everyone elses' arguments like you've got all the answers and speak with a great deal of conviction...too bad your "facts" are wrong.

My Quote from 2 or 3 pages ago:

Okemo and SR were T bar hills (that no one had heard of )coming on the scene as NEW giants with heaps of new lifts and massive marketing.

Eastcoastpowderhound:

Reading Ability - F

Putting foot in mouth - A+

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

My Quote from 2 or 3 pages ago:



Eastcoastpowderhound:

Reading Ability - F

Putting foot in mouth - A+

Wrong on the fact checks again...Okemo had a significant number of lifts in the 80s...don't ever remember riding a t-bar there...and Sunday River had quite a bit more than t-bars in the 80s.
Starthinker:
Fact-checking; F-
Ability to spray nonesense; A+
Keep up the good work mensa.

 

[snoseek]

i don't recall a whole bunch of t-bars going up locke, barker, spruce, white cap and north peak in the 1980's....

 

[riverc0il]

It is valuable. I've got a lot of work that hasn't gotten done here arguing the finer points of the skiing industry with a bunch of people who I thought were interested, but it's growing more and more apparent they're just arguing with me for the sake of arguing. Now I have the owner of the site taunting me like an A$$hole? You need to take a step back and take a good hard look at your last 2 posts sir.

I just gotta pipe in here and say Greg is about as reserved of a site administrator as can generally be found on the internet. I really appreciate the generally hands off approach taken around here. Greg has had a few barbs thrown his way and almost always eloquently posts a reasonable and well thought our response or a tongue in cheek humerus retort meant in good humor to lighten the mood. Any poster that gets it dished back at them from Greg needs to re-examine their posting habits, IMO.

 

[threecy]

No. I'm not. I'm actually way more interested in new lifts than the typical skier. I'd say 70% of K's recent traffic doesn't even know the difference between a regular and high speed quad. They just scratch their heads as to why one lift seems way faster than the other and don't give it another thought. Your argument logic seems to be completely opposite to the argument you seem to be trying to make.

To this point, though I don't know if its 70%, I'd say there is a very large portion of skiers that doesn't know the difference between a fixed grip quad and a high speed quad, except the latter is 'better' - hence why many resorts are able to get away with promoting 'high capacity quads.' In fact, I know people who have been in the industry in various capacities for decades and can't tell me the difference between a detach and a fixed grip.

The same thing happens here in ski forums as happens to people working in the industry or surrounding themselves with skiing - they tend to become a bit separated with, at the end of the day, the profit base in the industry - the casual skier - the people who come during good ski years and bring a profit, but stay at home in years like last year (save for a day or two if there's a big storm).

In regard to Okemo being a small area, they were in fact dominated by surfaces lifts until the late 70s or early 80s - there's a trailmap from that era in the summit lodge to back that up, as well as some online in various places. They were mostly Poma-lift served, and may have had a few T-Bars and ropes.

 

[snowman]

Wrong on the fact checks again...Okemo had a significant number of lifts in the 80s...don't ever remember riding a t-bar there...and Sunday River had quite a bit more than t-bars in the 80s.
Starthinker:
Fact-checking; F-
Ability to spray nonesense; A+
Keep up the good work mensa.

I know as A FACT Sunday river had one crappy chair (that broke down most seasons) and 2 or 3 T-bars and next to no snowmaking when Les started there with SKI in the 70's = T bar hill. Nothing was done with it lift and expansion wise until Les took it over in the early 80's. Okemo also had 3 crappy chairlifts and 4 or 5 T-bars/pomas when the Muellers bought it at the same time also = T-bar hill. As far as I'm concerned you're a T-bar hill until you get into some serious marketing and have atleast 1 high capacity lift. Case in point, Even though everyone in here is not exactly "joe public", how many of you have heard of "Big Rock" in Maine? They're just as big as Okemo and SR were until the dumptrucks of cash arrived. I don't need to fact check on stuff I ALREADY KNOW.

 

[snowman]

To this point, though I don't know if its 70%, I'd say there is a very large portion of skiers that doesn't know the difference between a fixed grip quad and a high speed quad, except the latter is 'better' - hence why many resorts are able to get away with promoting 'high capacity quads.' In fact, I know people who have been in the industry in various capacities for decades and can't tell me the difference between a detach and a fixed grip.

The same thing happens here in ski forums as happens to people working in the industry or surrounding themselves with skiing - they tend to become a bit separated with, at the end of the day, the profit base in the industry - the casual skier - the people who come during good ski years and bring a profit, but stay at home in years like last year (save for a day or two if there's a big storm).

In regard to Okemo being a small area, they were in fact dominated by surfaces lifts until the late 70s or early 80s - there's a trailmap from that era in the summit lodge to back that up, as well as some online in various places. They were mostly Poma-lift served, and may have had a few T-Bars and ropes.

When you take into account 50% of your skiers are women or young children, I'd guesstimate that number is likely spot on or higher. Not to be stereotypical, but most women in general do not understand the difference between a high speed quad and a fixed grip even when explained to them. I know, I've tried to explain. AGAIN, that's in general, there are some very mechanically minded ladies out there, but in general, to women, it's "that's one of those ones we can fit 4 of us on right?" or nothing. So you've got 80% of your women who don't know the difference, 80% of your kids under 12 and atleast 50% of your men. I mean, how can it be anything else anyway where half of your skier visits are people who show up once or twice a year?? How can you expect people like that to even have a passing interest in lifts? They don't. They DO know the difference between 20 lifts and 2 though. That is why money in a build out returns much better than money put into a replacement. You either have the lifts, or you don't. People for the most parts don't care what they are, unless you're doing something radical like replacing a T-bar with an 8 passenger gondi.

P.S. Thanks for your back up on most all of this Threecy. It's about the only thing that's kept me from being convinced the sky is green or everyones gone crazy except for me.

 

[Greg]

I just gotta pipe in here and say Greg is about as reserved of a site administrator as can generally be found on the internet. I really appreciate the generally hands off approach taken around here. Greg has had a few barbs thrown his way and almost always eloquently posts a reasonable and well thought our response or a tongue in cheek humerus retort meant in good humor to lighten the mood. Any poster that gets it dished back at them from Greg needs to re-examine their posting habits, IMO.

Thanks for the kind words, Steve. They mean a lot. I've always said I'm a member here first and admin second. Still, I try to present myself online as I am in person, especially since I've met many of you face-to-face. I do try to keep the mud-slinging to a minimum, but even I have to lay the smackdown from time to time. :lol: I guess condescending personalities just don't mesh well with mine, and I tend to respond with some patronizing of my own...

Now to add something of value to this thread. Let's consider the Peak Resorts PR approach as compared to Powdr's this summer. Well, it just so happens that Mount Snow has just about met their target for season pass sales; all with very little marketing and mostly word-of-mouth promotion. So at least from a pass sales standpoint, their approach has been success. That's about as close to an apples to apples comparison as you can get at this early point. Now, it remains to be seen whether the "eat what we kill" approach Powdr has adopted will also be successful, but there's no way to tell until after this, or more likely several seasons. Both approaches may ultimately be successful, but that remains to be seen.

 

[snowman]

Snowman, you need to get over yourself, you really do.
If Okemo and Sunday River in the early 90's don't fit your criteria because they were 'new', then fine the $400 million Stowe is investing right now during uncertain times might, but I doubt it. I'm sure you'll find some flaw in that arguement to.

I'm not sure spending that kind of money ar Stowe is a good idea at all. That could bankrupt them for sure. What are they spending it on?

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I'm not sure spending that kind of money ar Stowe is a good idea at all. That could bankrupt them for sure. What are they spending it on?

Stowe is spending the money on on-mountain improvements(high soeed quads, updated snowmaking, transfer gondola)...a large hotel/time share condos/slopeside homes...and a golf course. Stowe is not going to go bankrupt. They are incredibly well know as The Eastern Ski Capital...have IMHO more die-hard locals than Killington, gets dumped more than anywhere but Jay Peak, has steep terrain, and is a skiers mountain. Stowe is owned by AIG insurance and even if they operate at a small loss...it's tiny compared to AIGs other ventures...The amount of International visitors, especially from Great Britain is astounding....back to the subject of Killington...

We're beating a dead horse...what happens is out of our control..we'll have to wait and see...If you enjoy the terrain at Killington than you are only doing yourself a dis-service by boycotting the mountain. In April or May or whenever they close...it will be interesting to see how skier visits changed and how they were compared to other Northeast ski resorts..

 

[snowman]

Stowe is spending the money on on-mountain improvements(high soeed quads, updated snowmaking, transfer gondola)...a large hotel/time share condos/slopeside homes...and a golf course. Stowe is not going to go bankrupt. They are incredibly well know as The Eastern Ski Capital...have IMHO more die-hard locals than Killington, gets dumped more than anywhere but Jay Peak, has steep terrain, and is a skiers mountain. Stowe is owned by AIG insurance and even if they operate at a small loss...it's tiny compared to AIGs other ventures...The amount of International visitors, especially from Great Britain is astounding....back to the subject of Killington...

I kinda figured that's what they were dumping money into. They're not going to see any return on that because of the exact reason you outlined, people who ski there are diehard. They already have their market locked down and won't really attract anyone new by spending money. It's a component of the reason I'm saying spending money at K this year would not be a good move. Spending 3 million at Mt. Snow will also net you more than 30 million at Stowe because it's such a friggin' drag to get to Stowe for local market skiers. I hope they're atleast spreading it out over 10-15 years to keep things from seeming stale 10 years from now. I'd also argue K is the skiing capital of the east, not Stowe. K has always been way more on the radar than Stowe in my opinion.

 

[snowman]

We're beating a dead horse...what happens is out of our control..we'll have to wait and see...If you enjoy the terrain at Killington than you are only doing yourself a dis-service by boycotting the mountain. In April or May or whenever they close...it will be interesting to see how skier visits changed and how they were compared to other Northeast ski resorts..

I think New England might get a big bump from Canadians flocking down there to take advantage of the dollar. The exchange was at it's historical worst just 4 short years ago and now it's nearing it's historical best. People who haven't skiied the northeastern US for a while are going to show up as they went to places up here for the past 3 years. I think places like Mont Ste. Anne are going to take a beating.