LiftBlog Reports that Smuggs and Stowe are Exploring an Interconnect Gondola

[cdskier]

Well, there you go. That seems pretty clear what is going on here. Makes since because the guy is getting old and I imagine his family may not be interested in the ski business and they are in need of an exit plan. Vail is the obvious suiter.

Yea...and as someone else said, if the interconnect is approved, that bumps the value way up for Smuggs and makes it much more enticing for Vail.

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

feels like the proverbial writing is on the wall to me I've always been aware of Smuggs but have only skied there one day in my adult life (was a decent one tho). I suspect I should change that next season

 

[danimals]

have you ever skied the bowls? or smuggs? based on that post i assume the answer is no.

its not about it being a pristine wilderness. its not a pristine wilderness. its heavily trafficked because its access to one of the best sidecountry zones in all of new england. massive clearing and a lift running thru there would totally suck and traffic in the smuggs side bowls would increase with a bunch of jerrys and joeys who get eyes on the terrain for the first time in their lives.

I have skied the bowls, smuggs, Stowe and some other lines. I didn’t think about people riding the gondola watching people enter those zones. Does kind of sound like a disaster. Wonder if the addition of “western”style backcountry gates could help.

Either way, I doubt the owner of smuggs or vail resorts even think about the bowls.

 

[Edd]

So parking is overfull at Stowe many days. If they were to be operated as a single ski area I suppose Smuggs parking areas could help. That's a lot of extra driving but probably beats sitting in traffic in Stowe.

Just Googled the feasibility of maintaining Rt 108 during the winter and that looks like a non-starter.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Just Googled the feasibility of maintaining Rt 108 during the winter and that looks like a non-starter.

that would be the worst possible outcome so its a damn good thing its physically impossible. if you plowed 108 and had cars going between stowe and smuggs, buybye notch backcountry.

 

[thetrailboss]

So parking is overfull at Stowe many days. If they were to be operated as a single ski area I suppose Smuggs parking areas could help. That's a lot of extra driving but probably beats sitting in traffic in Stowe.

Just Googled the feasibility of maintaining Rt 108 during the winter and that looks like a non-starter.

If folks are coming from Chittenden County, then the drive is fairly similar timewise.

 

[urungus]

In the early 60s Smuggs tried to get the state to build a tunnel through the notch … https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/smugglersnotch.php

 

[Tin Woodsman]

have you ever skied the bowls? or smuggs? based on that post i assume the answer is no.

its not about it being a pristine wilderness. its not a pristine wilderness. its heavily trafficked because its access to one of the best sidecountry zones in all of new england. massive clearing and a lift running thru there would totally suck and traffic in the smuggs side bowls would increase with a bunch of jerrys and joeys who get eyes on the terrain for the first time in their lives.

No - this would not impact access to the Smuggs/Spruce side country. Not sure how/why you're concluding that if you've skied that terrain yourself. the lift line would cross on of the main access routes to that terrain from the Smuggs side, but stoking fear that this will cause the gondola riders to suddenly decide to take on gnarly, unpatrolled terrain terrain that doesn't directly end at a lift seems highly speculative, if not alarmist.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

you are nuts if you dont think a lift skirting right over the top of the bowls wouldn't invite a bunch of people to explore the bowls who otherwise never would have. just making the access easier from stowe alone more than doubles the number of people who can access that area on any given day. and they'd need to clear a shitload of trees off that area to install a lift line

 

[deadheadskier]

I have skied the bowls, smuggs, Stowe and some other lines. I didn’t think about people riding the gondola watching people enter those zones. Does kind of sound like a disaster. Wonder if the addition of “western”style backcountry gates could help.

Either way, I doubt the owner of smuggs or vail resorts even think about the bowls.

No gates please. Area gets too much traffic in the current state as is. It needs no more attention drawn to it.

Not just the hikers and environmentalists, but I hope the town of Stowe tells Vail to f off with this plan.

People think the traffic is bad now? The increase with this connection would be massive. Skier visits would skyrocket and they aren't all going to drive around to Jeffersonville.

If I owned a place in Stowe, I'd be selling high now and relocate to Sugarbush or Jay. The only people who benefit from Vail being in town is Vail themselves.

 

[deadheadskier]

you are nuts if you dont think a lift skirting right over the top of the bowls wouldn't invite a bunch of people to explore the bowls who otherwise never would have. just making the access easier from stowe alone more than doubles the number of people who can access that area on any given day. and they'd need to clear a shitload of trees off that area to install a lift line

Yup

My very first thought when hearing about this was not about how Smuggs as we know it is dead, but what this exposure to the bowls would mean for traffic. Might as well put them all on the map if this plan goes through. Most of the increase will come from the Stowe side. People venturing over to Smuggs for the first time and seeing all these people right under the gondola entering the woods.

 

[thetrailboss]

In the early 60s Smuggs tried to get the state to build a tunnel through the notch … https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/smugglersnotch.php

Well, you buried the lead. If threecy is correct, there was a proposal way back in the 1960's to install a connector lift and trails. So this idea is fairly old.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Yup

My very first thought when hearing about this was not about how Smuggs as we know it is dead, but what this exposure to the bowls would mean for traffic. Might as well put them all on the map if this plan goes through. Most of the increase will come from the Stowe side. People venturing over to Smuggs for the first time and seeing all these people right under the gondola entering the woods.

Sorry but I just don't see it. How large is the universe of people who would have never heard of the back/Birthday bowls, discover them via that lift and then decide they have the ability to ski them? There is an ability level filter such that the venn diagram of individuals fitting into all three circles seems highly limited. One can see all of the Chin Clip>Hellbrook side country from Spruce, yet there are untouched lines out there for days.

 

[snoseek]

Sorry but I just don't see it. How large is the universe of people who would have never heard of the back/Birthday bowls, discover them via that lift and then decide they have the ability to ski them? There is an ability level filter such that the venn diagram of individuals fitting into all three circles seems highly limited. One can see all of the Chin Clip>Hellbrook side country from Spruce, yet there are untouched lines out there for days.

You underestimate the sheer number of total fucking idiots carrying these megapasses. That area is gonna see way more volume and people will pushing into zones in there that will equal bad news.

 

[2planks2coasts]

Any way the state could condition approval on Vail NEVER being allowed to buy Smuggs?

 

[machski]

Any way the state could condition approval on Vail NEVER being allowed to buy Smuggs?

State, probably not. But the current federal administration is quite opposed to big business monopolies and conglomeration. That could stand a chance given all of Vail's holdings in a small geographic region should they try to buy Smuggs. Happened in the ASC days after all when they bought SKI.

 

[deadheadskier]

Sorry but I just don't see it. How large is the universe of people who would have never heard of the back/Birthday bowls, discover them via that lift and then decide they have the ability to ski them? There is an ability level filter such that the venn diagram of individuals fitting into all three circles seems highly limited. One can see all of the Chin Clip>Hellbrook side country from Spruce, yet there are untouched lines out there for days.

It's not just the people from the lift who haven't seen it before.

It's the hundreds of people from Stowe who don't bother to ski back there all too often because they don't want to deal with the process of getting back to Stowe. Now that they'll be able to do so all via lift vs skating across the pond and onto Sterling, it becomes that much more accessible.

You cite the example of not many people going up the Chin or the outer reaches of the Notch from Mansfield side. The reason is the work involved. Same reason as the bowls. The work.

That gondola goes in and side country becomes slack country. The bowls become just as popular as Angel Food because they become essentially lift serviced for Stowe.

Nevermind that lift might draw 100k more skier visits a season from people seeing the advertisement for "The Most Epic Ski Experience in the East. 1500 acres, 2600 vertical, 194 trails, 3 gondolas, superlative, superlative, superlative.

So, yes, I think that lift will be a disaster for the bowls for many reasons

 

[ss20]

I am in the minority that Vail would not buy Smuggs. To replace all 3 main lifts with hsq's or more would be $30m+ easily as those are all long, remote, and rocky lifts. All the lodging at Smuggs is antique and needs replacing. Snowmaking would need to be doubled to adequately have a chance at handing the crowds. It's be a massive investment, even for Vail. And what's the ROI? None. No one who hasn't bought an epic pass yet is now going to now because Vail buys Smuggs, outside of a few locals within an hour's drive.

I actually think that Vail ends up supporting this project and uses turn-key plans for a gondola to increase it's asking price and sells Stowe. Vail will never be able to get the town to work with them over the road and parking, and Vail has pissed off so many Stowe regulars. What's the ROI of owning a resort with a ton of access problems when you don't even own the main profit generation- real estate. Stowe is a drop in Vail's portfolio but still very valuable, and would be even more valuable if attached to Smuggler's Notch.

Flip it for a huge profit, looks good on the balance sheet, and looks good in front of regulators to end any whispers of monopoly

 

[thebigo]

State, probably not. But the current federal administration is quite opposed to big business monopolies and conglomeration. That could stand a chance given all of Vail's holdings in a small geographic region should they try to buy Smuggs. Happened in the ASC days after all when they bought SKI.

Vail should get out in front of this and sell crotched to boyne, somebody get katz on the phone.

 

[2planks2coasts]

I am in the minority that Vail would not buy Smuggs. To replace all 3 main lifts with hsq's or more would be $30m+ easily as those are all long, remote, and rocky lifts. All the lodging at Smuggs is antique and needs replacing. Snowmaking would need to be doubled to adequately have a chance at handing the crowds. It's be a massive investment, even for Vail. And what's the ROI? None. No one who hasn't bought an epic pass yet is now going to now because Vail buys Smuggs, outside of a few locals within an hour's drive.

I actually think that Vail ends up supporting this project and uses turn-key plans for a gondola to increase it's asking price and sells Stowe. Vail will never be able to get the town to work with them over the road and parking, and Vail has pissed off so many Stowe regulars. What's the ROI of owning a resort with a ton of access problems when you don't even own the main profit generation- real estate. Stowe is a drop in Vail's portfolio but still very valuable, and would be even more valuable if attached to Smuggler's Notch.

Flip it for a huge profit, looks good on the balance sheet, and looks good in front of regulators to end any whispers of monopoly

I would like some of whatever it is you're smoking. Has Vail sold ANY resorts in the Epic pass era? VR isn't selling Stowe.