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Season Pass Options/Considerations

thetrailboss

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As for Alterra that claim is just absurd. And if they were in dire financial shape they could easily take on low-interest debt with the sheer amount of property/assets they own...especially now that every plot of land in rural America has increased in value since people started fleeing the cities 5 months ago to the day.

Boy, I'm not so sure. From what I've seen pass sales for IKON and Epic are not what they were before. Understandable. I know some places are saying that sales are "strong", but what does that mean?

Like Vail, Alterra really stretched themselves RIGHT before the shit hit the fan. That has to hurt now that business is likely down.
 

cdskier

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Like Vail, Alterra really stretched themselves RIGHT before the shit hit the fan. That has to hurt now that business is likely down.

No doubt it hurts, but considering that Alterra is a private company, do we actually have any idea whether they really stretched themselves or not? The only major expenditure I can think of for Alterra right before COVID would be the Sugarbush acquisition.
 

icecoast1

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Yep. Labor was an issue before the pandemic. Young folks can find work in their intended career path that pays decent, so why work for peanuts bumping chairs?


When you factor that onntop of not being able to ski due to capacity restrictions and having to rent a place to live without a guarantee of full time work ( if things get shut down again), anybody that isnt a local would have to be really crazy to take any of these jobs
 

boston_e

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Both sound like complete bullshit. Especially Killington doing no "indoor services". They're renting bikes, have the peak lodge open, and are selling food right now. I'd imagine someone got in a tizzy because a few weeks ago the GM said something along the lines of "be prepared to boot up at the car and go right to the lift due to limited lodge capacity".

Keep in mind though that summer traffic is nowhere near what they see on busy weekends in the winter. Even on the busiest summer weekends it is unlikely the lodges reach 25% capacity (or whatever Vermont's current restrictions are)
 

BenedictGomez

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Yep. Labor was an issue before the pandemic. Young folks can find work in their intended career path that pays decent, so why work for peanuts bumping chairs?

All of you are correct, of course, except this frankly falls under the category of, "Dont hate the player, hate the game". I'd do the same thing if I owned a ski resort. The real idiot here is the Federal government, which lets literally TENS-OF-THOUSANDS of foreigners in every year & acts as a giant wage deflator depressing hourly employee wages. There should obviously be a better balance.
 

JimG.

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Boy, I'm not so sure. From what I've seen pass sales for IKON and Epic are not what they were before. Understandable. I know some places are saying that sales are "strong", but what does that mean?

Like Vail, Alterra really stretched themselves RIGHT before the shit hit the fan. That has to hurt now that business is likely down.

And frankly who knows how easy it will be to rebuild lost momentum. Make no mistake this is going to be a lean season. Best hope for ski areas is that it snows a lot.

If it's a crappy winter there will be more than a few areas that go out for good.
 

icecoast1

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And frankly who knows how easy it will be to rebuild lost momentum. Make no mistake this is going to be a lean season. Best hope for ski areas is that it snows a lot.

If it's a crappy winter there will be more than a few areas that go out for good.


The best hope for ski areas is a widely available effective vaccine before the end of ski season so they can start operating without capacity restrictions and actually make money again
 

BenedictGomez

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The best hope for ski areas is a widely available effective vaccine before the end of ski season so they can start operating without capacity restrictions and actually make money again

I'm not sure it's going to be that simple, for many reasons.

For starters, we live in a nation in which only ~40% bother to get the flu vaccine. Can we assume that a much higher percentage than that will get a COVID19 vaccine, which is what would be necessary? Again I'm not so sure.

And even if you could get a high adoption rate (I dont think you can), how long would it take for something like 60% of people to be vaccinated? A long time I imagine. And good luck getting people in crappy areas of urban centers to show up & get vaccinated, even if it's free (which it will be).
 

deadheadskier

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All of you are correct, of course, except this frankly falls under the category of, "Dont hate the player, hate the game". I'd do the same thing if I owned a ski resort. The real idiot here is the Federal government, which lets literally TENS-OF-THOUSANDS of foreigners in every year & acts as a giant wage deflator depressing hourly employee wages. There should obviously be a better balance.

I hope I'm misreading your point

For a guy who consistently beats his chest as the brightest mind in business on AZ, this literally might be the most ignorant post concerning resort town business reality I've ever read.

If you think H1B workers are harming local workers and should be reduced, I hope you are massively in favor of increased and more accessible government supported off season wellfare plans because that's the only way to cut out H1B.

Tourism labor markets are totally screwed right now because of the borders being closed to that help.

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BenedictGomez

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I gave you an opportunity to explain your point.

I read your post as a slam on the H1B program. Is that true?

If so explain why you feel that way

Well, for starters it's pretty obvious you dont understand the different between an H1B & an H2B visa, which is odd given hospitality & restaurant management is your area of expertise, not mine.

That said, without writing a treatise at this late hour, it boils down to the fact that the issuance of H2B visas has absolutely EXPLODED over the years, and that had a significant wage deflator effect on the real hourly wage paid (or more precisely "should" be paid) by business if more sensible gating were applied.

While some level of H2B visas are clearly necessary to fill roles, it was not necessary to completely "blow it out" over the last 20 or 25 years. This allowed businesses to get away with paying the artificially low wages over the years that others have mentioned in this thread. These big businesses LOVE it. It also pushed the aforementioned high school & college kids to ignore those roles or simply look elsewhere, which had a knock-on effect to justify the seeking of even MORE visa applicants.

Essentially, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and the large businesses gain millions from it.
 

deadheadskier

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You are utterly clueless about the realities of seasonal businesses in resort areas BG. My first job at a ski resort was at Keystone in 1993. There was a massive amount of foreign workers then and it still wasn't enough. I continued working seasonal resort jobs from line level to management through 2004 and then again from 2011-2014 when I went back to school for a second degree. At no point during the entirety of those times whether I was working for large corporations or family owned businesses was the employee roster full. There was ALWAYS a help wanted sign on the doors. Those who did work FT did so six days and often 50+ hours a week. Not by choice, but because of need.

While I won't argue your point that foreign workers drive down wages, they're 100% necessary to operate these businesses and quite frankly the programs need to be expanded. There isn't enough local talent to fill the rolls at virtually all resort areas. The HS and College aged people local to those areas aren't nearly enough to fill the need no matter how high of wages you could offer. Even this summer with reduced travel due to Covid, friends still in those businesses are operating reduced hours because of lack of help.

Seriously this was one of the most uninformed "hot takes" by AZs self proclaimed genius on every subject I have read from you.

Take a lap

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BenedictGomez

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You are utterly clueless about the realities of seasonal businesses in resort areas BG.

While I won't argue your point that foreign workers drive down wages, they're 100% necessary to operate these businesses and quite frankly the programs need to be expanded. There isn't enough local talent to fill the rolls at virtually all resort areas.

Seriously this was one of the most uninformed "hot takes" by AZs self proclaimed genius on every subject I have read from you.

Thanks, I'll take that under advisement, guy who proved he doesn't understand even the very basics of visas.

You should send your opinions on how increasing wages wont increase job demand to the Bureau of Labor & Statistics, I'm sure they'll enjoy that read.

I also never said some level of visas wasn't 100% necessary to fill roles, in fact, I literally said exactly the opposite, yet you completely ignore that in your nasty response in your never-ending quest to argue on the internet.
 

deadheadskier

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Derp you got me! I hastily wrote the wrong Visa.

Tell you what Mr wannabe Lee Iacocca, why don't you move to a ski resort town and open a restaurant and run it with local HS and College kids and pay the best wages in town. Let us know how it works out for you.

And that's cute accusing anyone else on this forum that they live to argue. You literally spend everyday on here trying to prove to the world you are the foremost expert on business, economics, government, education, pharmaceuticals, healthcare, culture, real estate, law, media, psychology....the list of things you claim to be the subject authority on is endless. In your mind you are Buffet, Lincoln, Gates, Einstein, Freud and Murdoch all wrapped in the same person. It's really awkward, you frequently are called out on it and just dig your heels in further on your self believed superiority with zero self awareness. It's certainly amusing! Stay gold bud!

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p_levert

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Derp you got me! I hastily wrote the wrong Visa.

Tell you what Mr wannabe Lee Iacocca, why don't you move to a ski resort town and open a restaurant and run it with local HS and College kids and pay the best wages in town. Let us know how it works out for you.

And that's cute accusing anyone else on this forum that they live to argue. You literally spend everyday on here trying to prove to the world you are the foremost expert on business, economics, government, education, pharmaceuticals, healthcare, culture, real estate, law, media, psychology....the list of things you claim to be the subject authority on is endless. In your mind you are Buffet, Lincoln, Gates, Einstein, Freud and Murdoch all wrapped in the same person. It's really awkward, you frequently are called out on it and just dig your heels in further on your self believed superiority with zero self awareness. It's certainly amusing! Stay gold bud!

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Well if the point of this response is to say BG you post too much!!!!, well I couldn't agree more. BG, post less! You and the entire board will be happier.
 

Bumpsis

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Derp you got me! I hastily wrote the wrong Visa.

Tell you what Mr wannabe Lee Iacocca, why don't you move to a ski resort town and open a restaurant and run it with local HS and College kids and pay the best wages in town. Let us know how it works out for you.

And that's cute accusing anyone else on this forum that they live to argue. You literally spend everyday on here trying to prove to the world you are the foremost expert on business, economics, government, education, pharmaceuticals, healthcare, culture, real estate, law, media, psychology....the list of things you claim to be the subject authority on is endless. In your mind you are Buffet, Lincoln, Gates, Einstein, Freud and Murdoch all wrapped in the same person. It's really awkward, you frequently are called out on it and just dig your heels in further on your self believed superiority with zero self awareness. It's certainly amusing! Stay gold bud!

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app

:grin: Finally, this needed to be said! But in some ways it's great have BG on here. It's entertaining. BG - don't take this personally, but you really don't always need to have the last word. I do admire your tenacity to spend as much time as you do, arguing. Oh, it's OK to be wrong, sometimes.
 

mister moose

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Is so, Is so.
deadheadskier said:
No it's not, no it's not
Is so, Is so.
deadheadskier said:
No it's not, no it's not

Tending to side with BG, as there are many other seasonal jobs that pay well enough for people that like that lifestyle to follow those jobs. Island bartenders, golf pros, tennis instructors, construction, I remember PBA made a go of Cape/Island flights in the summer and FL/islands in the winter. Where do VT paving crew workers go in the winter? It sure isn't bumping chairs, and I bet that work is easier than shoveling 350 degree asphalt. The low wage foreign visa seasonal workers have depressed wages to the point where no one else is signing up. Follow the money. No one else is signing up. There is one, and only one reason when that happens on a national industry wide basis. The wages/perks/benefits package is too low. It really is just that simple.

And the fact that DHS quotes constant job openings even with H2B visa program in force only shows those jobs are being managed to bubble along at minimal staffing. Because, again, raise the compensation and you get more applications.
 
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