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Season Pass Options/Considerations

Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
914
Points
18
I'm kind of curious what people think an appropriate wage should be for various positions in VT commonly filled by H2B visa workers such as housekeepers, dishwashers, line cooks, etc. These aren't exactly advanced positions.

Alternatively, do some of you even know what the resorts are currently paying their H2B visa workers for these positions? I hope no one is assuming they're just paying all their H2Bs minimum wage...

Whatever it costs to get people to show up.

I doubt resorts are paying bare minium wage, but I don't know. My experience with this is limited to working at an outdoor water park in high school (got paid ~$2 an hour over minimum wage at the time, but the park was exempt from paying time and a half overtime), listening to skiing podcasts on the program (sounds like it's an upper middle class young person thing to do that involves some US culture immersion), and random nuggets though the grapevine via friends that have held various seasonal jobs at MWV-based resorts.

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mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
964
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18
Does MRG or Middlebury Snowbowl use H2B workers? Pretty sure they don't. Both fine ski areas and within easy access of I assume your second home in Killington.

Apparently it's all talk and no walk for you Moose. You ever consider running for office?

Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:

I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets. As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:

How many H2B visa employees do you hire? Do you make extra efforts to hire locals? After including all airfare, lodging and any other H2B costs, do you offer the same or better wage to locals first?

What percent of your waste stream is recycling, and do you make maximum efforts to encourage compliance by customers? Perhaps you should hire lodge sheriffs to enforce recycling better.

What is your position on abortion, gun control, BLM, and littering?

Do you have an anti bullying policy and do you publish its effectiveness?

Have you built any nesting habitat for Bicknell's Thrush? How many acres?

Do you have a policy in place that bans parking for vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon?

What is your degree of employee diversity. Please provide data on age, religious beliefs, skin color, ESL, sexual preference, hairstyle, BMI and left handers.

How much of your food is GMO, Vegan, artificially flavored or imported? Is it all labeled as such?

While this may sound like a lot of work, I need to walk the walk so I can decide which resort best fits my personal belief system, and then I can post on Alpine Zone with impunity.

Thank you very much,

M Moose
Socially conscious skier
 

BenedictGomez

Active member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,655
Points
38
Location
PRNJ
Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:

I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets. As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:

How many H2B visa employees do you hire? Do you make extra efforts to hire locals? After including all airfare, lodging and any other H2B costs, do you offer the same or better wage to locals first?

What percent of your waste stream is recycling, and do you make maximum efforts to encourage compliance by customers? Perhaps you should hire lodge sheriffs to enforce recycling better.

What is your position on abortion, gun control, BLM, and littering?

Do you have an anti bullying policy and do you publish its effectiveness?

Have you built any nesting habitat for Bicknell's Thrush? How many acres?

Do you have a policy in place that bans parking for vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon?

What is your degree of employee diversity. Please provide data on age, religious beliefs, skin color, ESL, sexual preference, hairstyle, BMI and left handers.

How much of your food is GMO, Vegan, artificially flavored or imported? Is it all labeled as such?

While this may sound like a lot of work, I need to walk the walk so I can decide which resort best fits my personal belief system, and then I can post on Alpine Zone with impunity.

Thank you very much,

M Moose
Socially conscious skier

This is fantastic.
 

drjeff

Active member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
17,150
Points
38
Location
Brooklyn, CT
Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:

I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets. As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:

How many H2B visa employees do you hire? Do you make extra efforts to hire locals? After including all airfare, lodging and any other H2B costs, do you offer the same or better wage to locals first?

What percent of your waste stream is recycling, and do you make maximum efforts to encourage compliance by customers? Perhaps you should hire lodge sheriffs to enforce recycling better.

What is your position on abortion, gun control, BLM, and littering?

Do you have an anti bullying policy and do you publish its effectiveness?

Have you built any nesting habitat for Bicknell's Thrush? How many acres?

Do you have a policy in place that bans parking for vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon?

What is your degree of employee diversity. Please provide data on age, religious beliefs, skin color, ESL, sexual preference, hairstyle, BMI and left handers.

How much of your food is GMO, Vegan, artificially flavored or imported? Is it all labeled as such?

While this may sound like a lot of work, I need to walk the walk so I can decide which resort best fits my personal belief system, and then I can post on Alpine Zone with impunity.

Thank you very much,

M Moose
Socially conscious skier

:beer::beer::beer::beer:
 

djd66

Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
256
Points
18
Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:

I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets. As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:

How many H2B visa employees do you hire? Do you make extra efforts to hire locals? After including all airfare, lodging and any other H2B costs, do you offer the same or better wage to locals first?

What percent of your waste stream is recycling, and do you make maximum efforts to encourage compliance by customers? Perhaps you should hire lodge sheriffs to enforce recycling better.

What is your position on abortion, gun control, BLM, and littering?

Do you have an anti bullying policy and do you publish its effectiveness?

Have you built any nesting habitat for Bicknell's Thrush? How many acres?

Do you have a policy in place that bans parking for vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon?

What is your degree of employee diversity. Please provide data on age, religious beliefs, skin color, ESL, sexual preference, hairstyle, BMI and left handers.

How much of your food is GMO, Vegan, artificially flavored or imported? Is it all labeled as such?

While this may sound like a lot of work, I need to walk the walk so I can decide which resort best fits my personal belief system, and then I can post on Alpine Zone with impunity.

Thank you very much,

M Moose
Socially conscious skier

This was awesome!
 

dblskifanatic

Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
242
Points
18
Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:

I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets. As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:

How many H2B visa employees do you hire? Do you make extra efforts to hire locals? After including all airfare, lodging and any other H2B costs, do you offer the same or better wage to locals first?

What percent of your waste stream is recycling, and do you make maximum efforts to encourage compliance by customers? Perhaps you should hire lodge sheriffs to enforce recycling better.

What is your position on abortion, gun control, BLM, and littering?

Do you have an anti bullying policy and do you publish its effectiveness?

Have you built any nesting habitat for Bicknell's Thrush? How many acres?

Do you have a policy in place that bans parking for vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon?

What is your degree of employee diversity. Please provide data on age, religious beliefs, skin color, ESL, sexual preference, hairstyle, BMI and left handers.

How much of your food is GMO, Vegan, artificially flavored or imported? Is it all labeled as such?

While this may sound like a lot of work, I need to walk the walk so I can decide which resort best fits my personal belief system, and then I can post on Alpine Zone with impunity.

Thank you very much,

M Moose
Socially conscious skier

Is this your litmus test for everything you do? Good luck!


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mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
964
Points
18
This ad came up on facebook:

Screenshot_2020-08-24-14-12-16.jpg

Tells you a little bit of what Alterra is thinking about doing for hiring this season.
 

catskillman

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
810
Points
18
My view on Vail eventually declining has nothing to do with "labor costs", or any individual operating cost, it has to do with the fact that I've seen this movie before in other industries, and it always ends the same. They have a MASSIVE debt position. Nothing that Rob Katz is doing hasnt been done before in other industries. He's combined an aggressive growth strategy (buying everyone under the sun) with what is essentially a subscription service (EPIC pass), and shows huge revenue increases that I will bet my life on are more from immediately accretive bolt-on-acquisitions than they are from true organic growth.

So yes, while Vail's EBITDA (Earnings Before I Trick Dumb Auditors) has looked great, I believe there will come a day when the party ends. I've also said they need to make at least one acquisition per year, because if a year sunsets without an acquisition then you get a true YoY apples-to-apples view of their financials without all the accounting machination ability you have post acquisition. PEAKS closed September 19, 2019, which means that assuming Vail cant acquire anyone in the next 1.5 months because of COVID19, we'll get that clean accounting view sometime in October. Maybe I'll be 100% wrong about that part, we'll see, but I think there's a chance you'll see a bad quarter.

And lastly, the problem with all these aggressive growth companies is that eventually you've plucked all the low-hanging fruit, and subsequent acquisitions become less attractive, or worse, you're pressured into making a few poor purchases. Alterra adopting the same strategy as Vail so quickly was probably not something they foresaw & made the situation worse & drove up acquisition costs via competition. Frankly, I'm pretty surprised Vail hasn't issued a secondary offering to raise cash, but be on the lookout, because I bet that's coming. The stock will drop on that announcement. And the Big 3 ratings agencies will eventually punish Vail's credit status, which will make the borrowing which is the blood that flows through Vail's veins, significantly harder & more expensive. Just wait for that. I'm also pretty surprised the stock's only down 17%, because needless to say, I wouldn't touch it.

Other than that, Vail's a super company.

I have not been keeping up to date with the forumn's but this 100% true.

YTY or store for store is the main comparison that shareholders are interested in. They want increases YTY. Only way to keep it fuzzy is to buy something new, sell unprofitable divisions, go private etc.

Covid will most definitely play into their reasons / excuses to the drop in EBIT & EBITDA.

and I will bet most on this site have not heard EBITDA defined that way!
 

Bumpsis

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Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
1,010
Points
36
Location
Boston, MA
Scroll up, you didn't read the related posts. It's called satire.

I'm afraid you give your self way too much credit calling your post a satire. At best, it's just mockery, the standard currency for right wingers.
Reading that stuff was just like tuning in to "outrage talk radio". Mockery is all you got. A number of things mocked are actually big problems that need solutions in a real world but all that comes from that from the extreme right is just ugliness masquerading as humor.
Your post would actually be funny if it weren't so sad.
 

BenedictGomez

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Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,655
Points
38
Location
PRNJ
Serious business this internet; no humor allowed.

 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
964
Points
18
I'm afraid you give your self way too much credit calling your post a satire. At best, it's just mockery, the standard currency for right wingers.
Reading that stuff was just like tuning in to "outrage talk radio". Mockery is all you got. A number of things mocked are actually big problems that need solutions in a real world but all that comes from that from the extreme right is just ugliness masquerading as humor.
Your post would actually be funny if it weren't so sad.

It was a list. Look carefully, it was only a list. There was no mocking of the subject matter, what was being mocked was the concept of tying consumer purchase decisions to companies who publicly state an ideology complimentary to yours, and shunning those that don't. In other words, remove normal consumer criteria like quality, selection, service, price, warranty, etc.

I have opinions on those issues, many probably align with yours to some degree. They do not enter what-so-ever my choice of ski resort.

Me thinks you might be just a touch oversensitive?
 

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
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Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,615
Points
38
Location
Southeast NH
It was a list. Look carefully, it was only a list. There was no mocking of the subject matter, what was being mocked was the concept of tying consumer purchase decisions to companies who publicly state an ideology complimentary to yours, and shunning those that don't. In other words, remove normal consumer criteria like quality, selection, service, price, warranty, etc.

I have opinions on those issues, many probably align with yours to some degree. They do not enter what-so-ever my choice of ski resort.

Me thinks you might be just a touch oversensitive?

It was a clever write, but kinda BS humor as Bumpsis points out.

You proved my point of selective outrage on your part of your position of protecting jobs for "the citizenry" but only when it's convenient for you.

You entered this conversation with pretty forthright rejection of H2B employment practices at ski areas both for taking jobs from the "citizenry" and also driving down wages for those Americans still competing for those jobs. You also demonstrated very little knowledge about just how bad that wage dive might be in reality. Deflected to the oil industry when called to back up your position.

Nobody is perfect, but I hope most do have a "line" where talk becomes action. I don't buy chicken sandwiches from Chikafilet as an example.

But I'm really not sure what your line is for continuing to do business with Killington. How low do the H2B wages need to be there before you back up your talk with some walk? I don't think you care so much to even find out what the market is truly like.

You just like to talk

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machski

Active member
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
2,103
Points
38
Location
Northwood, NH (Sunday River, ME)
Sunday River and Sugarloaf will put the Maine Pass onsale Sept. 1st and offered only until October 12th. The levels are Gold/Silver/Bronze at $1399/899/649 respectively. The Nitro pass age group can pick up a Silver Mai e at Bronze pricing. Benefits are the same as the NEP's at those levels EXCEPT no Loon access (Loon's carrying capacity is much smaller and as such, Boyne has sit it off from these passes currently offered. IF you already bought a 20/21 NEP prior to June 15th, Loon is still on that pass). They do also have unlimited and limited (blackout days) Maine 4 day passes at $349/279 respectively and those are good for this coming season as well as 21/22.

Currently, Loon will likely offer a pass for itself but that won't be announced until after Labor Day. Sunday River when asked on FB if other restrictions on season pass holders is planned (IE advanced reservations, etc for specific days) has answered no. So they fully intend to limit based on NEPs sold through June 15th and what will likely be reduced pickup of passes moving forward.

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