Ski Resort Response to COVID-19

[Not Sure]

I think you’re missing a main point here that the state he comes from is much less significant than how safe he is in Vermont. Assuming that he practices all the safety measures there is little to zero risk for transmission, even if he had the virus. Is he in close contact with people without masks for 15+ minutes? Probably not. Is he wearing a mask when in public and distancing? Probably yes.


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Some anecdotal evidence: My mother was an assisted living facility that was doing really well up until a month and a half ago. A staff member spread it to 11 people my mother being one. She’s in her mid 90s and yesterday got her second negative test. Overall she was in pretty poor health to begin with but managed to beat it. When she was sent to the ER three weeks ago I spent five hours next to her thinking she was going to pass . The ER doctor on many occasions was 1 foot away from her face because she couldn’t talk very well. Everyone in the room had masks on, Neither myself or the ER doctor tested positive. To date and none of the people that tested positive and the nursing facility had passed away they’ve all survived.
I understand people are still dying but I think the disease is being dealt with differently now.

One thing I don’t know that’s being measured is how many people are committing suicide, how many Cancer cases and other diseases are going undiagnosed due to the lockdowns?

 

[VTKilarney]

One thing I don’t know that’s being measured is how many people are committing suicide,

Vermont's suicide rate has not risen.
https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...d-mental-health-services-increase/3236486001/

That could be because we have low infection rates and low unemployment.

 

[drjeff]

Nice attempt at deflection. I am sure that when I had to travel to Saratoga for one night a few weeks ago I quarantined upon my return. So, yeah. I follow the rules. Even though my entire time in the "yellow" county was spent outdoors when I was not in the hotel room.


And you know full well that you can test negative on a Friday and be contagious on a Sunday.


That was EXACTLY my point.


I think you may have failed civics class. We are a country that has laws in place to protect the well being of others. You aren't "free" to violate the Vermont rules. Sure, enforcement is lax, but the rules exist and are on the books for a reason. Just be honest that you don't care if other people get sick. As long as you get to strap on a pair of skis.


Ahh... other people are bad so I should be too. Interesting moral compass you have there. What you can't dance around is that Vermonters have been much more successful at stemming Covid than people from Connecticut. One reason is that decent people are willing to respect the rules that have literally kept people in Vermont from dying.

So lets see VTKilarney. When you go skiing in the Northeast Kingdom this Winter, and say you come in contact with a local employee, who may of say gone to Burlington in the previous week (not at all an unrealistic thing and no interstate travel was involved by either party and the greater Burlington area certainly has been in the darker blue colors numerous weeks lately), how are you going to be sure that that employee didn't have it, as an asymptomatic carrier who passed all of the mountains health screening checks, and then pass it on to you? You can't be, unless of course you will be inside of your own closed air system breathing bubble, from the moment you leave your house until the moment you return.

I am aware of the risk of contracting COVID as well as spreading it. Heck, if I test positive, I'm out of work for at least 2 weeks, and if I'm not working, that directly effects my income. I am also quite aware that one can, with plenty of precautions and safe hygiene practices, function quite safely for myself, my family and my community with respect to COVID-19. Call me arrogant if you want. The reality is that there are many people in this society of have jobs where they don't have a choice about interacting with others in society, and with taking the proper steps, it can, and certainly has been done the overwhelming majority of the time, in a safe manor.

Only in a Utopian world is there no risk in our day to day lives. We all take steps to minimize those risks everyday. Life still needs to go on though.

If you want to keep nit picking various points in an attempt to "scorecard" this discussion, feel free to. Otherwise, I acknowledge and understand your perspective, and as of now, as it seems, I doubt I'll be getting much North of the Killington/Pico region this Winter, if even that far North, so you shouldn't have to worry about my regularly tested/or eventually vaccinated self heading up into your part of VT, and when I am not inside of my own residence in VT, I will 100% be adhering to the mask wearing and hand sanitizing guidelines, like you yourself are also supposed to be following to minimize the risk of infection.

 

[VTKilarney]

So lets see VTKilarney. When you go skiing in the Northeast Kingdom this Winter, and say you come in contact with a local employee, who may of say gone to Burlington in the previous week (not at all an unrealistic thing and no interstate travel was involved by either party and the greater Burlington area certainly has been in the darker blue colors numerous weeks lately), how are you going to be sure that that employee didn't have it, as an asymptomatic carrier who passed all of the mountains health screening checks, and then pass it on to you? You can't be, unless of course you will be inside of your own closed air system breathing bubble, from the moment you leave your house until the moment you return.

Look, I get it. Rather than just admit that you are putting yourself before others you are desperately clinging to a false equivalency and ignoring the fact that certain rules apply to you that don't apply to me. I have said before that I take issue with some of the rules. That was especially true when I quarantined after being in Saratoga Springs for one night and doing only outdoor activities. It SUCKED. But it was the right thing to do and it was the right lesson to teach my children.

Okay... moving on...

Here are some Vermont opening dates:
https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/22/ver...ening-dates-still-waiting-on-states-guidance/

 

[slatham]

VTKilarney your analogy using the Boyd twins is wrong. They were infected in March before we understood the virus, before there were well understood protocols, before travel restrictions etc. And of course there was no tracing back to a "flattlander" being the source of infection. If this had happened this summer with some linkage to a tourist I would agree with you.

But you are correct that Dr Jeff and others are blatantly violating the VT rules. There really is no way around that. Justification based on safety measures notwithstanding - and its great that such safety measures are being taken - but it's a violation nonetheless.

That said the VT restrictions are too broad, and do not get to the core of the issue, which is behavior - people following the protocols in daily life and especially when they are in VT. There IS NO WAY VT avoided summer outbreaks without tourists and locals alike following protocols. The smoking gun you are looking for isn't there.

And the unemployment rate is a snapshot in time, and is in fact low (though with government support). But I would argue that it will surge if the winter season is a full-out bust.

Edit: Thanks for the posting the opening dates link - it cheered me up. I am convinced there has been no VT guidance for ski areas as Scott plans to change them once elected......

 

[thebigo]

Vermont's suicide rate has not risen.
https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...d-mental-health-services-increase/3236486001/

That could be because we have low infection rates and low unemployment.

At one point I located an excess death by state metric on the CDC website but I cannot seem to find it today. This is the best method of contrasting the response between states, total deaths in 2020 vs total deaths in 2019. At the time VT was slightly better than neighboring states, wish I could find the data.

 

[Andrew B.]

So glad I live in a green county. Even though I am less than a mile from the red county where the rest of my family lives, my Job and shopping areas are the state of Vt. says I am good to go.
I feel much better about myself now.

 

[VTKilarney]

But you are correct that Dr Jeff and others are blatantly violating the VT rules. There really is no way around that. Justification based on safety measures notwithstanding - and its great that such safety measures are being taken - but it's a violation nonetheless.

That said the VT restrictions are too broad, and do not get to the core of the issue, which is behavior

As someone who quarantined after merely being outdoors in Saratoga Springs, I completely understand what you are saying. For better or worse, every state in this country has had to enact rules that don't always factor in individual behavior. It's the best we can do in an imperfect world.

 

[abc]

You know as well as I do that you can get a negative test result on a Friday and be contagious on a Sunday

So you're saying essential workers should not live their life AT ALL, is that right?

What about him going to the grocery store where he lives? What about the restaurant he takes his family to?

Many countries that has successfully kept the virus in check are allowing visitors WITH RECENT NEGATIVE TESTING RESULT! More over, those countries also have a rigorous track and trace program to follow up in case these visitors later tested positive. Those are the countries that has a far better economy recovery!

What's idiotic is Vermont's restriction NOT taking consideration of test, AND it's too lazy to bother with meaningful track and trace. Instead, it takes the lazy decision of banning all visitors from other states. Do you know how many essential workers travel to Vermont for ESSENTIAL BUSINESS? Are they being tested as frequently as DrJeff? Are they being monitored as to their contact with locals while there?

The real reason we have such a piss poor result in controlling this pandemic is because the government is not using a scientific approach, not in actuality. "Rules" are drawn up without a real understanding of the science behind it, followed with zero enforcement. Instead, people are nitpicking on individuals actions that's clearly within the spirit of the science.

I will "boycott" Vermont this winter. So those head-in-their-arse Vermonters gets to relish in their perceived safety while their economy goes down the toilet (well, not bothering getting a pass has more to do with my not travelling to Vermont )

 

[VTKilarney]

So you're saying essential workers should not live their life AT ALL, is that right?

No, I haven't said that whatsoever. You can go back and check.

What I am saying is that there are scores of ski areas that welcome travelers from Connecticut, so perhaps skiing at one of those is a better option than breaking rules that Vermonters have embraced to keep themselves safe. Rules that, while imperfect, have worked the best in the entire country.

 

[Andrew B.]

So you're saying essential workers should not live their life AT ALL, is that right?


What's idiotic is Vermont's restriction NOT taking consideration of test, AND it's too lazy to bother with meaningful track and trace. Instead, it takes the lazy decision of banning all visitors from other states. Do you know how many essential workers travel to Vermont for ESSENTIAL BUSINESS? Are they being tested as frequently as DrJeff? Are they being monitored as to their contact with locals while there?

The real reason we have such a piss poor result in controlling this pandemic is because the government is not using a scientific approach, not in actuality. "Rules" are drawn up without a real understanding of the science behind it, followed with zero enforcement. Instead, people are nitpicking on individuals actions that's clearly within the spirit

Exactly

 

[abc]

The only way VT will be able to stop non-VT residents from coming to VT this winter is to shut down all ski areas.

No, they only need to close all hotels, AirBnB's.

We'll see how long Vermont locals can keep their state's economy afloat.

It'll be a fantastic social experiment. Just like Sweden chose to NOT impose lockdown to test the impact of the virus. Vermont can chose to close its playground to out-of-staters by closing all travel related facilities, that'll test the impact to its economy.

I'm all for it, other countries and states doing their social experiment in extreme measure or no measure, as long as it's not my own state!

 

[VTKilarney]

It's interesting that the people trying to self-rationalize rule breaking are from other states that are faring MUCH worse with the pandemic.

It's like taking cooking advice from Jeffrey Dahmer.

One thing to keep in mind is that, while tourism is down, numerous people from out of state have chosen to settle for a longer term in Vermont in order to ride out the pandemic. They have injected quite a bit of money into the economy. Many of them will return to their original homes when the pandemic has abated and when tourism will pick up again.

 

[Slidebrook87]

I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont.


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[abc]

as someone who lives not too far from the casinos in CT, and travels every day on my way to/from work up and down interstate 395

You commute everyday to Brooklyn from there? :-o

That's a hell of a long drive.

 

[VTKilarney]

You commute everyday to Brooklyn from there? :-o

That's a hell of a long drive.

It's only 40 minutes or thereabouts.

 

[VTKilarney]

I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont.

Vermont allows visitors to quarantine in their own home prior to traveling to Vermont.

There isn't a state in this country that has figured out a way to uniquely individualize Covid rules. Some generalizations are inevitable - which will always result in a degree of imperfection.

 

[Smellytele]

Once Biden is the prez and the dems control both the house and senate there will be nation wide rules.


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[abc]

I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont.

A green region that legally allows large gathering won't be green for long.

 

[drjeff]

You commute everyday to Brooklyn from there? :-o

That's a hell of a long drive.

There's actually a Brooklyn, CT, and that's where I live. I certainly don't commute to Brooklyn, NY from where I live in NE CT, that would be INSANE!!! :-o:-o:-o

I've got about a 20 minute commute to where my office is in one of the border towns with Mass (and don't get me going with how I have 1 set of state restrictions where I live/work, and then if I go 5 miles North over the border into MA there's another set of rules and if I go 5 miles East into RI there's a 3rd set of rules!! )

This for certainty is a serious public health issue, that has grave consequences for some, no doubt about it. It is also a public health crisis that is blatantly exposing the ineptness of various governmental and regulatory officials as well as the influence that the media has over those who choose not to take the time to objectively look at the data that's out there about both how this virus can spread, as well as the relatively basic steps that we all can take to both reduce it's spread as well a continue to function in a fairly normal societal fashion.