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Ski Resort Response to COVID-19

dlague

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What VTers never break the rules?

Americans in general are renowned rules breakers.

That is what makes America great! How many here have ducked ropes in this forum! For example!


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drjeff

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You've made your point VTK. About twenty times now. I know your legal profession has you predisposed to pound confessions of guilt out of people, but it really is okay to make a point and walk away in a normal social setting.

We got it. Dr Jeff is a selfish, snow groomer killing, flatlander. Damn him!!!!

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I mean you just could of called me an arrogant a-hole to suffice DHS! :wink::wink:

In this world of trying to use proper preferred pronouns when identifying people, when in doubt, I just call them a-hole, since regardless of one's preferred pronoun, we all still have a-holes! :lol::lol::lol:
 

kbroderick

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Yeah, ironic isn't it that the state with the second lowest population total in the country is fairling so well with Covid. Wyoming is the least populous state and they have quite a bit more cases than VT but only 3 more deaths. So circumstances have nothing to do with how well Vermont has fared, it's all because of great leadership and ridiculous travel restrictions on non state citizens. Come on.....

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Circumstances play a role, but I think it's hard to think that the different anti-Covid regulatory environments in Wyoming, Montana and the Dakotas versus New England aren't a significant part of the different results now. I'm worried that a lot of the "I won't fear the virus" mentality that is biting those states right now is going to also bite rural areas of northern New England—both areas got away with a lot early on, primarily due to low population density. That's clearly not enough in and of itself, particularly as it is a double-edged sword (it means fewer potential carriers, but it also usually means less medical-care infrastructure).
 

drjeff

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I just wish Dr. Jeff was more honest about it. I don't understand how someone who works in a high risk job thinks that they are on a moral high ground, but he could have just said, "Look. Skiing is more important to me than the rules that Vermont has asked me to follow to protect their own citizens. I don't give a crap what you people in Vermont think. If I want to ski I'm skiing, dammit."

Have the backbone to call a spade a spade.

Perspective thing for you and with what I do on a daily basis VTKilarney. I HAVE to trust my patients and their answers to the COVID screening questions that we ask them before we have them come into my office (and potentially expose myself and my staff), I have to take their temperatures and feel comfortable with the result (granted we don't have a baseline "normal" body temperature for them, so I really can't judge if say a 99.0 temp scan reading is normal or elevated for that person, but those are the regulations in place, so I follow them and then have to use my best judgement as to if it's OK or not). I don't have to test myself or my staff, let alone biweekly, but I do. Short of when myself and my staff are having a quick drink of water or a quick snack, the entire time we're in the office, it's masks on 100% of the time. Wash my hands, no lie, 50+ times a day on a typical work day. Practice proper mask wearing protocols, Always have my mask on out in public, less the times when I am at a table eating in a local restaurant. I have not allowed patients to come into my office who refuse to wear a mask, even if I can certainly see some validity in their argument about what difference the mask would make in the roughly 25 feet between the front door to my office and my primary treatment room, when as soon as they sit in my chair, I am asking them to take their mask off, and keep it off until I have finished working on them.

Honestly, proper infection control is, and has been so second nature for me and my staff for decades, that unless you listen to the media opining that dentistry is one of the riskiest professions with respect to COVID-19 spread, we sure wouldn't think that. Heck there was just news story released this week about how, even after 6 months or so on average of direct patient treatment, that over 99% of dentists have and continue to test COVID negative, and the overwhelming majority of the 1% that tested positive had contact tracing to exposures that happened while not at work.

The reality is that when you go into most any direct patient care healthcare field, that from basically day 1, stringent infection control procedures and policies and hammered into your train of thought. So that day in and day out, you're just thinking about what you're doing for/on your patient, and not stressing about "am I going to catch this or that disease". I am not naive enough to think that in the last 7+ months that I haven't treated an asymptomatic COVID-19 patient and/or come in contact with a similar person at say the grocery store. The reality is that the systems and protocols that I follow to keep myself safe, as well as my staff, do keep turning up negative COVID test after negative COVID test, so it either works, or we have just been incredibly lucky. When you work, and have worked for closing in on 25 years now, a world full of aerosolized particles being generated less than 2 feet from your face, you really learn to both follow proper protocols for your own safety as well and learn to trust those protocols and pieces of protective equipment you wear, and do so in a way that at the end of the day, you feel like you will be posing no risk to your family when you get home.

Fault me if you want. You are certainly welcome to feel that way. I wholeheartedly feel that while technically not zero, the risk that myself and my family, given the plans that we have in place, for bringing COVID to our beloved portion of VT and then it spreading within the community, is about the same as getting struck by lightning. It's not zero, but it's pretty darn close, and likely much lower than many others who will travel to VT this Winter.

I respect the back and forth that we can have here, without it rapidly breaking down into a glorified temper tantrum worthy of a 2 year old in dire need of a nap! :flag:
 
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VTKilarney

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I respect the back and forth that we can have hear, without it rapidly breaking down into a glorified temper tantrum worthy of a 2 year old in dire need of a nap! :flag:
I was a bit over the top - so you have my apologies for that.
 

drjeff

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I was a bit over the top - so you have my apologies for that.

Absolutely nothing to apologize for. We're both very passionate about the State and the Sport, and both want things to return to a much more "normal" way of day to day life again. I respect the perspective that you have brought to this spirited, but civil, discussion today:thumbup:
 

VTKilarney

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Absolutely nothing to apologize for. We're both very passionate about the State and the Sport, and both want things to return to a much more "normal" way of day to day life again. I respect the perspective that you have brought to this spirited, but civil, discussion today:thumbup:

For some added context, we had a genuine scare this week. On Saturday we attended a small dinner gathering (6 people). It was our first indoor social gathering since March. A couple of days later we learned that the child of the host family had a classmate that was diagnosed positive. Knock on wood everyone seems to be fine, but it was extremely sobering.
 

drjeff

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For some added context, we had a genuine scare this week. On Saturday we attended a small dinner gathering (6 people). It was our first indoor social gathering since March. A couple of days later we learned that the child of the host family had a classmate that was diagnosed positive. Knock on wood everyone seems to be fine, but it was extremely sobering.

Closest I have had to date, that I am aware of, is a friend of mine, who is a tax attorney, and my regular partner in 2 person golf tournaments at the club we belong to, and someone who by nature is very by the rules and careful with his interactions, back in July, we rode in a golf cart together during a club tournament for 18 holes on a Saturday. Being a golf cart, it's plenty of air flow through it, and we were obviously outside the entire time, and he's the type that even with a cart, will walk more than he rides. We weren't wearing masks in the cart. He texted me the following Tuesday that a client of his who he had seen in his office, who he sat across an 8 foot table from, but no masks on, tested positive (but asymptomatic) is a pre travel test that he took. My golf partner then tested positive after getting tested on that Tuesday. I tested negative when my golf partner told me about his positive test (at that time back in July we didn't have the rapid tests in my office that we initially got in early September, so I had a "regular" test at the drive through clinic that my local CVS drugstore has). His wife and 2 college aged kids who were home with him before he found out tested negative as did myself.

My out of the office, outside mask wearing game, upped its level of what it covers with that one. So I do get the within the social circles threat potential and how that can make one feel
 

ALLSKIING

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Those of you saying Vermont will crumble without tourism need to get over yourselves. Tourism accounts for 6-8% of the Vermont economy. What will be devastated is tourism dependent businesses and their employees.

The town I live in has had essentially no new cases in months. A few towns on the 91 corridor have very high case rates, but zero information is being made available on any demographics. Are these cases in nursing homes, prisons, schools, certain companies or neighborhoods? Armed with usable information we could alter our behavior more intelligently if WE HAD MORE USABLE DATA.

Here's the Vermont travel map from last week:

View attachment 27091

Addison county had 902/M active cases according to the algorithm. It's perfectly ok for all these folks to take their kids someplace, freely travel in VT to go shopping, hit a restaurant.

Same map and date:

View attachment 27092

Here's Rensellaer county, 646/M cases, 2/3 the rate of Addison county, yet Vermont thinks it's NOT OK for these folks to cross the border and do their business or have a sandwich.

When you have rules that make no sense, it fosters disrespect for the rules. People just go on with their lives.

Same for Vermonters shopping in West Leb NH, another yellow county. But that's OK, I'm shopping and that's essential. As if there isn't a grocery store in Woodstock, White River, Rutland, etc.

Vermont is fortunate because it 1) has a small population, 2) is fairly rural, 3) has no significant transportation hubs, 4) has no travel intensive large industry base, and 4) has adopted a more stringent policy with regard to bars, restaurants and travel.

I get VK's desire to keep the State's COVID rate down. It's hard to disagree with that in theory. At today's rates in many nearby areas though the infection rates are low and adoption of the common sense well known procedures (hand washing, mask use, etc) are good enough to operate with some degree of normalcy.

Killington had a small outbreak at a private party where there was a lot of no mask wearing, hugging, all in an indoor room. Early on back in January Boston's first outbreak was traced to a convention hall, again indoors with a lot of close contact. Colorado, organized ski trip and parties with close contact among the large group.

Perhaps we should do both: Open up slowly and progressively, but keep a loud and constant reminder of what behavior spreads this virus. In other words, adopt healthy behavior over address.
Tourism brings 3 billion dollars annually to VT as well as VT having the 2nd hight second homes owners in the nation. No way VT can survive without replacing that.

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skef

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Absolutely nothing to apologize for. We're both very passionate about the State and the Sport, and both want things to return to a much more "normal" way of day to day life again. I respect the perspective that you have brought to this spirited, but civil, discussion today:thumbup:

(Grown men throughout the northeast crying their first tears ever at the beauty of this new friendship.)
 

mister moose

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Tourism brings 3 billion dollars annually to VT as well as VT having the 2nd hight second homes owners in the nation. No way VT can survive without replacing that.
Not sure where the $3B number comes from, but Vermont's GDP is 35B, so using your number you get 8.5% for Tourism's contribution to the VT economy. It's important, but I don't think you can state that losing half of 10% or all or whatever fraction of tourism that comes to VT this winter "Isn't survivable" Of course it is. Just not for the small restaurant owner at a resort town.

https://www.forbes.com/places/vt/#1afbea4668cb
 

ALLSKIING

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Not sure where the $3B number comes from, but Vermont's GDP is 27.4B, so using your number you get 10.9% for Tourism's contribution to the VT economy. It's important, but I don't think you can state that losing half of 10% or all or whatever fraction of tourism that comes to VT this winter "Isn't survivable" Of course it is. Just not for the small restaurant owner at a resort town.
If VT didn't have tourism they wouldn't have the 2nd highest second home owners in the nation. That injects a ton of money into VT. Probably all together 20% or more that's huge.

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mister moose

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If VT didn't have tourism they wouldn't have the 2nd highest second home owners in the nation. That injects a ton of money into VT. Probably all together 20% or more that's huge.
Some of the sources I looked at for tourism's contribution to GDP takes into account second homeowners, short term rentals, etc.

As you can see, I edited my post above as I shortly after saw the lower GDP figure was for 2016. This Forbes number of $35B is more recent.
 

ALLSKIING

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Some of the sources I looked at for tourism's contribution to GDP takes into account second homeowners, short term rentals, etc.

As you can see, I edited my post above as I shortly after saw the lower GDP figure was for 2016. This Forbes number of $35B is more recent.
That's interesting. I wonder if there is a breakdown somewhere on the internet.

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mister moose

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Vt GDP.jpg

That's interesting. I wonder if there is a breakdown somewhere on the internet.
I found you had to crunch some numbers, but here's one breakdown that doesn't segment tourism. You can see that government, medical, finance, construction and manufacturing make up a large majority of the State's GDP.
 

abc

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There's actually a Brooklyn, CT, and that's where I live.
That's an interesting artifact of a comma!

It's a separator between the city (or village) and the state on an address

It's also a separator between two addresses. So for those who have a second home, it's pretty typical to put a comma between them.

Anyway, now I know there's a Brooklyn in Connecticut!
 
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