Ski Sundown mention in Skiing Magazine

[pigfarmer]

Wow - have to say I'm impressed that you guys showed up to not only post, but take your medicine like the meth monkey men you are. :lol:

Seriously though, two thoughts:

1) The reason I started flinging names and being ornery is b/c not only was 35* obviously wrong, more importantly this type of mistake is ridiculously common in the major skiing publications, including Skiing. I see a mistake or exaggeration like this at least once per issue. It shouldn't be that difficult to figure out % pitch/grade vs. degrees. You'd get a pass from me if it was a one-time thing, but it isn't.

2) As for story ideas, I haven't seen much on the increasing trend to "head back to the future" with skiers seeking out the backcountry/sidecountry in the East as well as the West. The plundering of pow in places like K-Mart backside, Pico sidecountry, Slidebrook, Smuggs Back/Birthday Bowls, all over Mansfield, and the 20th Hole and thereabouts at MRG is now de rigeur for most serious Eastern skiers. No names or specific locations need to be revealed, but there's a LOT more there that the masses are now discovering.

Mr Woodsman,

We did a piece on guided backcountry trips at resorts and beyond in the Sept 2006 issue. Didn't hit all these, though (and I've been threatened with slow death if I write about the Bday Bowls, so don't expect to see much on those anytime soon). We're trying to get good OB stuff in there whenever possible. I walk a very thin line between wanting to give our readers the goods on stashes and not wanting to risk my health with the locals. The problem with writing about stashes w/o giving specifics is that it just makes readers feel left out, so we tend to only put stuff in the mag that we feel is ok to unwrap. Does that make sense? What do you think of this policy?

Thanks for commenting,
Ben

 

[JimG.]

Mr Woodsman,

We did a piece on guided backcountry trips at resorts and beyond in the Sept 2006 issue. Didn't hit all these, though (and I've been threatened with slow death if I write about the Bday Bowls, so don't expect to see much on those anytime soon). We're trying to get good OB stuff in there whenever possible. I walk a very thin line between wanting to give our readers the goods on stashes and not wanting to risk my health with the locals. The problem with writing about stashes w/o giving specifics is that it just makes readers feel left out, so we tend to only put stuff in the mag that we feel is ok to unwrap. Does that make sense? What do you think of this policy?

Thanks for commenting,
Ben

I'll jump in here...I don't like it at all. Most of the stashes at my home hill are found out only through exploration and good contacts amongst our group of regulars. Alot of our stashes were cut by us in the offseason, on our time, by our labor. We don't have any marked glades on the trail map. Tree skiing is strictly OB.

What makes it right for a magazine to inform the whole world about these stashes so every yahoo out there can come trash them? I have nothing against folks who wander through our woods and find our stashes using good instinct and line choice. More power to them and I'll enjoy a few runs and a beer at the end of the day with them. And I'll ask them to keep their good finds to themselves and their friends.

But I don't like seeing skiers barely skilled enough to ski on trails using info that a magazine outed to "discover" our OB stashes. Forget about the injustice that I obviously feel, it's downright dangerous and gets some of these people in way over their heads.

My motto is simple...I will not tell anyone where a secret stash is, but I will gladly show them provided they have convinced me they are skilled enough to handle it.

 

[2knees]

But I don't like seeing skiers barely skilled enough to ski on trails using info that a magazine outed to "discover" our OB stashes. Forget about the injustice that I obviously feel, it's downright dangerous and gets some of these people in way over their heads.

My motto is simple...I will not tell anyone where a secret stash is, but I will gladly show them provided they have convinced me they are skilled enough to handle it.

now i'll jump in. I see this sentiment on message boards all the time. But, i seriously wonder how many people are gonna read about some obscure stash and knowingly go there without the skills or direct knowledge of the terrain. I bet if you discussed every private stash at a ski area, online or in print, you wouldnt see any appreciable change in the amount of people actually skiing it, never mind even finding it. (short of printing a map to go along with the text) The ones interested enough to really go digging were probably gonna find them anyway. I just dont see joey sixpack who skis 5 days a year reading an article about some crazy backcountry chute packing up his starter jacket and sloggin off into the woods.

I think people just like to get all worked up about it cause tree skiing is so "in" right now and its "core" to have your own stashes. My first post ever online was on the old K-Chat. I simply asked the name, without giving location, of the current tree run called the Throne. I damn near got lynched. Which is and was completely ridiculous given the fact you can clearly SEE toilet bowl aka the throne, from half of the canyon.

Additionally, i think pigfarmer specifically said they dont give away anything that might get people ready to burn him alive.

no offense jim, just had to get that off my chest.

 

[Greg]

I'll jump in here...I don't like it at all. Most of the stashes at my home hill are found out only through exploration and good contacts amongst our group of regulars. Alot of our stashes were cut by us in the offseason, on our time, by our labor. We don't have any marked glades on the trail map. Tree skiing is strictly OB.

What makes it right for a magazine to inform the whole world about these stashes so every yahoo out there can come trash them? I have nothing against folks who wander through our woods and find our stashes using good instinct and line choice. More power to them and I'll enjoy a few runs and a beer at the end of the day with them. And I'll ask them to keep their good finds to themselves and their friends.

But I don't like seeing skiers barely skilled enough to ski on trails using info that a magazine outed to "discover" our OB stashes. Forget about the injustice that I obviously feel, it's downright dangerous and gets some of these people in way over their heads.

My motto is simple...I will not tell anyone where a secret stash is, but I will gladly show them provided they have convinced me they are skilled enough to handle it.

now i'll jump in. I see this sentiment on message boards all the time. But, i seriously wonder how many people are gonna read about some obscure stash and knowingly go there without the skills or direct knowledge of the terrain. I bet if you discussed every private stash at a ski area, online or in print, you wouldnt see any appreciable change in the amount of people actually skiing it, never mind even finding it. (short of printing a map to go along with the text) The ones interested enough to really go digging were probably gonna find them anyway. I just dont see joey sixpack who skis 5 days a year reading an article about some crazy backcountry chute packing up his starter jacket and sloggin off into the woods.

I think people just like to get all worked up about it cause tree skiing is so "in" right now and its "core" to have your own stashes. My first post ever online was on the old K-Chat. I simply asked the name, without giving location, of the current tree run called the Throne. I damn near got lynched. Which is and was completely ridiculous given the fact you can clearly SEE toilet bowl aka the throne, from half of the canyon.

Additionally, i think pigfarmer specifically said they dont give away anything that might get people ready to burn him alive.

no offense jim, just had to get that off my chest.

I'm not sure how I feel here either. Also, take my comments with a grain of salt as I am not a sidecountry/BC/slackcountry/OB guy. Most of the limited tree skiing I do is on marked glades. With that said, I think Pat raises an interesting question. In reality, would posts about BC/SC stashes online or in print dramatically increase traffic in these areas on any given day?

 

[JimG.]

now i'll jump in. I see this sentiment on message boards all the time. But, i seriously wonder how many people are gonna read about some obscure stash and knowingly go there without the skills or direct knowledge of the terrain. I bet if you discussed every private stash at a ski area, online or in print, you wouldnt see any appreciable change in the amount of people actually skiing it, never mind even finding it. (short of printing a map to go along with the text) The ones interested enough to really go digging were probably gonna find them anyway. I just dont see joey sixpack who skis 5 days a year reading an article about some crazy backcountry chute packing up his starter jacket and sloggin off into the woods.

I think people just like to get all worked up about it cause tree skiing is so "in" right now and its "core" to have your own stashes. My first post ever online was on the old K-Chat. I simply asked the name, without giving location, of the current tree run called the Throne. I damn near got lynched. Which is and was completely ridiculous given the fact you can clearly SEE toilet bowl aka the throne, from half of the canyon.

Additionally, i think pigfarmer specifically said they dont give away anything that might get people ready to burn him alive.

no offense jim, just had to get that off my chest.

It's OK Pat, we just totally disagree. I'm not sure if it was SKIING or SKI, but one of them gave away a stash at my hill a few years ago. The "logic" was that it was not too far off in the woods and that anyone who wanted to explore could find it.

Well, if it was so visible, why out it? Let people explore. I've seen more than enough yahoos flailing around in our stashes to know that what you are saying isn't true...people with lesser skills do use the info the magazines give out to find these places. And these people were there because of the magazine...printing the info adds a sense of legitimacy to going OB, and it fools people into thinking that if the magazine says it's there that it's as good as being on a trail map.

I'm not into all that "in" or "core" crap...I've been skiing too long to care. Maybe when someone who gets really hurt or killed using this info sues the magazine for giving the info out things will be set right. I guess that's the American way.

 

[2knees]

wasnt really referring to you when i brought up core and in. just a generalized thing i've felt over the few years i've been posting on boards. You certainly dont strike me as the type of skier/person who cares about labels.

that being said, you're right, i dont have the first hand perspective of this as you have, so it's entirely possible i am 100% wrong. i'm also not advocating threads specifically targeting peoples stashes. I just find the uproar these topics cause a little hard to understand.

but then again, there arent any hidden magical bump runs for me to keep secret. lol

 

[JimG.]

wasnt really referring to you when i brought up core and in. just a generalized thing i've felt over the few years i've been posting on boards. You certainly dont strike me as the type of skier/person who cares about labels.

that being said, you're right, i dont have the first hand perspective of this as you have, so it's entirely possible i am 100% wrong. i'm also not advocating threads specifically targeting peoples stashes. I just find the uproar these topics cause a little hard to understand.

but then again, there arent any hidden magical bump runs for me to keep secret. lol

Hah! Mr. secret bump line.

I'm not coming from a totally selfish perspective here...my concern is the people who get hurt using that info. The mountain would not be able to sustain itself against a wave of lawsuits and would have to crack down on everyone going into the woods.

So everyone loses. THAT is my concern.

 

[Marc]

I remember reading the piece about the Meatheads.


As a matter of fact, I remember seeing Ben Hewitt in Epoch, as well. I believe it was at Greylock, and I believe that trip was written up in the article.

It's awesome to see Ben and Pieter here to answer and take constructive criticism.





That said, your magazine should feature more pictures of me.

 

[Greg]

Heh. I actually did a feature in the national section on the Meatheads two years ago... can't remember exactly which issue... Those guys are a riot.

I just tried to upload the text from my computer but it exceeds the allowed file size... if you want, I'd be happy to email it to you.

Or ship it over to me and I'll host it...

Ben provided the Word doc and I converted it to a PDF here:

http://alpinezone.com/other/meathead_hewitt.pdf

 

[Marc]

Ben provided the Word doc and I converted it to a PDF here:

http://alpinezone.com/other/meathead_hewitt.pdf

That's right, it was Marcy. I should have know that, I've only watched Epoch going on sixty times now.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I like this thread. Thanks to PigFarmer and PSVann for adding to the conversation. I agree that online forums like this can be a very good resource for ski publications to get ideas/information for articles.

More about steep trails here:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/9520-steepest-ski-trails-state-2.html?highlight=steep

 

[bvibert]

I remember reading the piece about the Meatheads.

I remember reading the article too. It's actually what got me turned on to the Meatheads in the first place.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
I remember reading the piece about the Meatheads.

I remember reading the article too. It's actually what got me turned on to the Meatheads in the first place.

I read it too.
I actually kept the issue for quite a while. However, I think I lost it when I moved.

 

[pigfarmer]

I'll jump in here...I don't like it at all. Most of the stashes at my home hill are found out only through exploration and good contacts amongst our group of regulars. Alot of our stashes were cut by us in the offseason, on our time, by our labor. We don't have any marked glades on the trail map. Tree skiing is strictly OB.

What makes it right for a magazine to inform the whole world about these stashes so every yahoo out there can come trash them? I have nothing against folks who wander through our woods and find our stashes using good instinct and line choice. More power to them and I'll enjoy a few runs and a beer at the end of the day with them. And I'll ask them to keep their good finds to themselves and their friends.

But I don't like seeing skiers barely skilled enough to ski on trails using info that a magazine outed to "discover" our OB stashes. Forget about the injustice that I obviously feel, it's downright dangerous and gets some of these people in way over their heads.

My motto is simple...I will not tell anyone where a secret stash is, but I will gladly show them provided they have convinced me they are skilled enough to handle it.

JimG,
I completely understand what you're saying here. Believe me, this is absolutely the biggest issue I wrestle with when determining what to print. And it's not strictly altruism; hell, I ski the northeast, too. I don't want to see my favorite lines tracked out anymore than anyone else does.

That said, I really waffle between keeping stuff quiet and sharing it in a warm, fuzzy, communal way. I also question how many people really act on this stuff; hell, I've been talking up Big Jay for years and I know it can get hit pretty hard on deep weekends, but I was out there 3x last year and never saw anyone but my skiing partners.

I will say that if someone shows me a line or stash in confidence, I honor that. Not just because I'm an honorable guy (which is questionable, just ask my wife), but because if I don't, they ain't gonna show me another one! I don't have any hard and fast rule regarding when a stash becomes public enough to warrant mention in the mag, but it seems like it's pretty easy to figure out when something's been "outted" and is fair game. I've probably made a few bad calls over the years, no question. It's tough game to play in such a tight-knit region/community with a very finite amount of terrain.

 

[JimG.]

JimG,
I completely understand what you're saying here. Believe me, this is absolutely the biggest issue I wrestle with when determining what to print. And it's not strictly altruism; hell, I ski the northeast, too. I don't want to see my favorite lines tracked out anymore than anyone else does.

That said, I really waffle between keeping stuff quiet and sharing it in a warm, fuzzy, communal way. I also question how many people really act on this stuff; hell, I've been talking up Big Jay for years and I know it can get hit pretty hard on deep weekends, but I was out there 3x last year and never saw anyone but my skiing partners.

I will say that if someone shows me a line or stash in confidence, I honor that. Not just because I'm an honorable guy (which is questionable, just ask my wife), but because if I don't, they ain't gonna show me another one! I don't have any hard and fast rule regarding when a stash becomes public enough to warrant mention in the mag, but it seems like it's pretty easy to figure out when something's been "outted" and is fair game. I've probably made a few bad calls over the years, no question. It's tough game to play in such a tight-knit region/community with a very finite amount of terrain.

My respect grows with each post you make...you get it.

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Paul]

Ben provided the Word doc and I converted it to a PDF here:

http://alpinezone.com/other/meathead_hewitt.pdf

Awesome!

Thanks Greg, and Ben, looking forward to reading it tonight.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I was thinking of a piece that would be more high level, not talking about specific stashes or locations, per se. My bad if that wasn't clear. You could have shots of skiers slaying these beautiful glades, say somewhere on "Mansfield Massif" or "between Lincoln Gap and App Gap" or "in the Bolton-Trapp area". You get the picture.

FTR, I am also super sensitive to the issue of specific locations and stashes being revealed. I've dabbled at times and it's a lot of hard work. Those who have skied in the woods almost universally agree that lines are getting skied out quicker and quicker. Stuff that used to lie untouched at SB for days is now tracked out by noon. Locals and other dedicated sidecountry enthusiasts have to venture further and further into the wilderness to enjoy the same experience they once did. This is a big issue. And it's not just about "my powder" etc.. There a bunch of wahoos in the woods now that are a danger to themselves and others. I a firmly believe that the kind of exposure these places get online and most definitely in print exacerbate this issue. These lines arent' that wide. They can't handle traffic like groomed runs. A typical VT off map glade can be trashed by just 5-6 skiers. that's all it takes.

 

[freeheel_skier]

I was thinking of a piece that would be more high level, not talking about specific stashes or locations, per se. My bad if that wasn't clear. You could have shots of skiers slaying these beautiful glades, say somewhere on "Mansfield Massif" or "between Lincoln Gap and App Gap" or "in the Bolton-Trapp area". You get the picture.

FTR, I am also super sensitive to the issue of specific locations and stashes being revealed. I've dabbled at times and it's a lot of hard work. Those who have skied in the woods almost universally agree that lines are getting skied out quicker and quicker. Stuff that used to lie untouched at SB for days is now tracked out by noon. Locals and other dedicated sidecountry enthusiasts have to venture further and further into the wilderness to enjoy the same experience they once did. This is a big issue. And it's not just about "my powder" etc.. There a bunch of wahoos in the woods now that are a danger to themselves and others. I a firmly believe that the kind of exposure these places get online and most definitely in print exacerbate this issue. These lines arent' that wide. They can't handle traffic like groomed runs. A typical VT off map glade can be trashed by just 5-6 skiers. that's all it takes.

I agree with TW....

here is my .02

If you figure it out for yourself you would feel differntly. That is why it is called secret stash. Sometimes it ain't that secret....it is right there for everybody to poach...just open your eyes and explore. Look at a map...hike. earn your slack country turns!

 

[pigfarmer]

I was thinking of a piece that would be more high level, not talking about specific stashes or locations, per se. My bad if that wasn't clear. You could have shots of skiers slaying these beautiful glades, say somewhere on "Mansfield Massif" or "between Lincoln Gap and App Gap" or "in the Bolton-Trapp area". You get the picture.

FTR, I am also super sensitive to the issue of specific locations and stashes being revealed. I've dabbled at times and it's a lot of hard work. Those who have skied in the woods almost universally agree that lines are getting skied out quicker and quicker. Stuff that used to lie untouched at SB for days is now tracked out by noon. Locals and other dedicated sidecountry enthusiasts have to venture further and further into the wilderness to enjoy the same experience they once did. This is a big issue. And it's not just about "my powder" etc.. There a bunch of wahoos in the woods now that are a danger to themselves and others. I a firmly believe that the kind of exposure these places get online and most definitely in print exacerbate this issue. These lines arent' that wide. They can't handle traffic like groomed runs. A typical VT off map glade can be trashed by just 5-6 skiers. that's all it takes.

I like the idea of a pictorial... less text, less specifics. One of the big issues with everything we run is getting good art. There are only a few pro ski photographers in the east, and in years like the ones just past, it's really hard to get the sweet shots we all want to see in the mag.

You're right about stuff getting tracked out quicker. No question, and no doubt the magazines shoulder some of the blame. We're quick to jump on any trend. We have to be, or we'd fold. Still, I would hazard a guess that, like every trend, the backcountry will someday soon be returned to those who were sniffing it out 10 and 20 and 30 years ago, before anyone else cared. Wahoos tend to go the way of wahoos everywhere, back to their wahoo lives, where they bother no one but their wahoo wives.

Then again, it's not as if I'm such a sage. I'm only 35. Only been skiing the backcountry for less than a dozen years. I'm part of the problem in more ways than one.

 

[JimG.]

I like the idea of a pictorial... less text, less specifics. One of the big issues with everything we run is getting good art. There are only a few pro ski photographers in the east, and in years like the ones just past, it's really hard to get the sweet shots we all want to see in the mag.

You're right about stuff getting tracked out quicker. No question, and no doubt the magazines shoulder some of the blame. We're quick to jump on any trend. We have to be, or we'd fold. Still, I would hazard a guess that, like every trend, the backcountry will someday soon be returned to those who were sniffing it out 10 and 20 and 30 years ago, before anyone else cared. Wahoos tend to go the way of wahoos everywhere, back to their wahoo lives, where they bother no one but their wahoo wives.

Then again, it's not as if I'm such a sage. I'm only 35. Only been skiing the backcountry for less than a dozen years. I'm part of the problem in more ways than one.

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one who jumped on this topic...seems that both Tin Woodsman and freeheel-skier feel similarly.

I think the best part of OB and BC skiing is the discovery aspect. Break trail, sweat, get hit in the face with a branch or two, then suddenly pop out onto a sweet 20-25 turn untracked line through the woods. Giving directions lessens the experience.

I like TW's idea to set up a few photo ops...the east gets short shrift when it comes to ski art, and there are some utterly beautiful areas that are hidden in the trees.