Ski Sundown mention in Skiing Magazine

[pigfarmer]

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one who jumped on this topic...seems that both Tin Woodsman and freeheel-skier feel similarly.

I think the best part of OB and BC skiing is the discovery aspect. Break trail, sweat, get hit in the face with a branch or two, then suddenly pop out onto a sweet 20-25 turn untracked line through the woods. Giving directions lessens the experience.

I like TW's idea to set up a few photo ops...the east gets short shrift when it comes to ski art, and there are some utterly beautiful areas that are hidden in the trees.

Totally agree with the discovery aspect. But here's my question (and I'm not trying to be snide): Do ya'll really want the magazine to run stories on sweet BC/OB stashes and then say "sorry, we can't tell you where it is"? Would you rather we didn't run these pieces at all? My sense is that people want more of these stories, not less. The question is how to treat them. I can tell you straight up that it'll never fly with my top editors to completely stop giving specifics to at least some OB stashes; rightly or wrongly, their belief is that people want to know where to get this stuff, and it's part of our job to tell them where/how.

This in large part is why you see us rehashing many of the same spots: Mittersill, Mt Washington, the Chin, Big Jay etc. None of these are secrets; I can sleep at night after running these in the mag (tho we have chosen to be purposefully oblique in our references to the Chin and Big Jay, in particular, due to the potential for someone to do themselves bodily harm)

Anyway. This is obviously a huge issue that's of interest to a lot of people. I'd love some feedback on how - specifically - everyone here thinks we should handle it.

 

[from_the_NEK]

:idea: Do ski mags ever actively search out or use quality amateur photography? Or is there some sort of code where Professionals have to be used? I think there are a lot of good amateur shots in the AlpineZone gallery alone. :idea:

 

[Greg]

Anyway. This is obviously a huge issue that's of interest to a lot of people. I'd love some feedback on how - specifically - everyone here thinks we should handle it.

I'll defer to the true back/slackcountry enthusiasts here, but thanks for valuing AZ members' opinions.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I like the pictorial idea rather than specifc directions that describe "secret lines".
I built a line at Burke last year that I was able to keep relatively secret (see avatar). I had the respect of those who knew about it that only I was allowed to go down it first before anyone else . However, I knew that after the initial one year break-in period last year, that this year it would be fair game to everyone. I hope the cat is not totally out of the bag on it this year since last year we only had good enough conditions to ski it top to bottom twice :-( .

 

[pigfarmer]

:idea: Do ski mags ever actively search out or use quality amateur photography? Or is there some sort of code where Professionals have to be used? I think there are a lot of good amateur shots in the AlpineZone gallery alone. :idea:

No code. But also not the time/personpower to deal with every skier with a digi camera who has a few snaps of their buddies. I don't have much to do with the photo side of things, but I'll take a browse through the gallery. And if anyone here is a truly avid shooter with some good shots to back it up, I'd love to see 'em.

 

[pigfarmer]

I like the pictorial idea rather than specifc directions that describe "secret lines".
I built a line at Burke last year that I was able to keep relatively secret (see avatar). I had the respect of those who knew about it that only I was allowed to go down it first before anyone else . However, I knew that after the initial one year break-in period last year, that this year it would be fair game to everyone. I hope the cat is not totally out of the bag on it this year since last year we only had good enough conditions to ski it top to bottom twice :-( .

you guys have some great terrain up there. John Worth gave me a good tour a couple yrs back. Didn't get up there last year, but when you get snow, I'll be baaaack.

 

[JimG.]

But here's my question (and I'm not trying to be snide): Do ya'll really want the magazine to run stories on sweet BC/OB stashes and then say "sorry, we can't tell you where it is"? Would you rather we didn't run these pieces at all? My sense is that people want more of these stories, not less. The question is how to treat them. I can tell you straight up that it'll never fly with my top editors to completely stop giving specifics to at least some OB stashes; rightly or wrongly, their belief is that people want to know where to get this stuff, and it's part of our job to tell them where/how.

Unfortunately, my answer (not trying to be snide either) is yes to running the story and pics and not tell where.

I understand your top editors want the directions because it sells magazines. But I'm not sure I agree it is the magazine's job to tell readers how to get to or how to ski these places...again, not trying to be contentious, but do your editors know the limits of their liability coverage?

Because the magazine cannot put an eye on the skiing skills of the people who they may direct to these places. Or their equipment readiness. Or their survival skills or route finding skills. There will be no waiver for the magazine to have readers sign, or even possibly a ticket purchased from a ski resort that passively gets the buyer to accept the risks of skiing.

If I were the editor, I would want no part of any of that.

 

[pigfarmer]

Unfortunately, my answer (not trying to be snide either) is yes to running the story and pics and not tell where.

I understand your top editors want the directions because it sells magazines. But I'm not sure I agree it is the magazine's job to tell readers how to get to or how to ski these places...again, not trying to be contentious, but do your editors know the limits of their liability coverage?

Because the magazine cannot put an eye on the skiing skills of the people who they may direct to these places. Or their equipment readiness. Or their survival skills or route finding skills. There will be no waiver for the magazine to have readers sign, or even possibly a ticket purchased from a ski resort that passively gets the buyer to accept the risks of skiing.

If I were the editor, I would want no part of any of that.

Interesting. Not stuff I've thought much about, tho I suspect it has been considered at the corporate level, given the amount of avalanche-prone terrain we feature in the national section.

 

[from_the_NEK]

you guys have some great terrain up there. John Worth gave me a good tour a couple yrs back. Didn't get up there last year, but when you get snow, I'll be baaaack.

You didn't miss much last year. The glades never really filled in that well. I bet you got a really good tour from John. He is a really laid back guy. Did he show you any "off the map runs"? There are enough of those at Burke to keep one busy for quite a while. You just have to find them :wink:

 

[2knees]

hey since this was originally about sundown, how about "outing" their secret tree stash in the next issue. It runs from behind the ******* to the bottom of ******. I've heard it called area 51 lol. Supposedly there is a 40 foot mandatory air in there, but you didnt hear it from me. Of course it snows about 3 times a year in ct so thin cover makes it even more hairy.

man, is it beer o'clock yet?

Lewis S. Mills huh. My cousin went there and so did an ex-girlfriend of mine. small world.

 

[Marc]

Interesting. Not stuff I've thought much about, tho I suspect it has been considered at the corporate level, given the amount of avalanche-prone terrain we feature in the national section.

I would have to assume they'd include a disclaimer with the appropriate legalese to cover them well enough. Or maybe they already do. I wouldn't expect anything less from a rag of that size.

 

[riverc0il]

That said, I really waffle between keeping stuff quiet and sharing it in a warm, fuzzy, communal way. I also question how many people really act on this stuff; hell, I've been talking up Big Jay for years and I know it can get hit pretty hard on deep weekends, but I was out there 3x last year and never saw anyone but my skiing partners.

much respect to your posts and the dicussion brewing here. i would just like to point out how many people go off big jay that don't belong out there. it seems every season, someone needs a rescue or spends an unintended night out there. it certainly isn't getting a ton of traffic, but it just takes luring in one yahoo that doesn't belong. being published in goodman's books certainly takes big jay off the stash list, it is definitely well known. but i just wanted to point out that yahoos are indeed following these 'secret stash drops' and getting themselves in trouble.

i will also echo the sentiment that people who do not belong in certain areas are just asking for trouble as going off the map becomes the next big thing. in addition to pointing out so called 'secret' shots, i would like to see some education being made. if you are going to print the details, you should also address safety concerns and make sure people understand the undertaking they are getting in. just saying "be prepared to make your own rescue" isn't enough. an honest evaluation of the required skills really should be in order. goodman lays it down well in his book, both in the intro and well tours are more advanced. and lets face it, almost everything goodman details in his book with a few exceptions is childs play compared to tight back woods shots.

off the map lines are getting tracked out quicker. but that doesn't bother me... if more and more powder hounds are discovering the joys of woods skiing and getting off the map, cool. i am willing to share my powder.... with people who should be out there. don't make me dope slap you for snow plowing down a 5 foot wide steep chute and killing the pow while endangering yourself and other skiers.

part of the off map aspect of skiing is a sense of adventure. give someone a road map and not only have you cheated the people that found the goods the hard way, but you cheat the person you just gave a free pass to. get out there and hike during the summer, you'll be amazed what you find. learn to ski slower and watch the side of the trails, read the mountain, understand where good areas are and are not, what trees are best, etc. getting off the map is about the type of adventure that ski areas can no longer provide in the east. hopefully what will become a rich tradition that can be passed on.... in person to fellow adventurers. i am right with jim on this one and as mentioned previously on here... most people are more than happy to show almost any one with the required skills anything in person. it is part of the fun and the only way you ever get to experience that great line for the first time all over again.

 

[riverc0il]

in regards of whether to print directions or not, i don't think any one would suggest to run a story and not give any idea where the story took place (e.g. somewhere in northern vermont...). but like someone suggested (TW i think?), perhaps saying somewhere in such and such a drainage or between such and such lifts or something like that. something that will make someone break out a topo map, do some studying, and have to make an honest effort to uncover where to go. you are right though, that isn't going to sell magazines. someone earlier mentioned the "core" aspect (2knees i think?). the only people worried about being "core" are the people that are need to be spoon fed how to have an adventure instead of trying to get out there and create or find an adventure. subtlety, mystery, adventure, effort, etc. this is the spirit of what these lines were all about.

 

[2knees]

someone earlier mentioned the "core" aspect (2knees i think?). the only people worried about being "core" are the people that are need to be spoon fed how to have an adventure instead of trying to get out there and create or find an adventure. subtlety, mystery, adventure, effort, etc. this is the spirit of what these lines were all about.

just so we're clear, I agree with you on this. I hate when people try to label themselves or others. I hope you didn’t misinterpret what I was saying earlier in this thread.

 

[riverc0il]

i wasn't trying to label any one, most especially not you. just suggesting in a slightly sarcastic way that if that the only people worried about that label are those in pursuit of it. i think the whole "core" thing is kinda silly. everyone takes the sport to a different level and different degree, and cool for all the different ways of someone trying to enjoy the sport whether snow plowing down a green circle or hucking their meat or in search of secret powdery perfection, what ev.

 

[meat]

JimG,
I completely understand what you're saying here. Believe me, this is absolutely the biggest issue I wrestle with when determining what to print. And it's not strictly altruism; hell, I ski the northeast, too. I don't want to see my favorite lines tracked out anymore than anyone else does.

That said, I really waffle between keeping stuff quiet and sharing it in a warm, fuzzy, communal way. I also question how many people really act on this stuff; hell, I've been talking up Big Jay for years and I know it can get hit pretty hard on deep weekends, but I was out there 3x last year and never saw anyone but my skiing partners.

I will say that if someone shows me a line or stash in confidence, I honor that. Not just because I'm an honorable guy (which is questionable, just ask my wife), but because if I don't, they ain't gonna show me another one! I don't have any hard and fast rule regarding when a stash becomes public enough to warrant mention in the mag, but it seems like it's pretty easy to figure out when something's been "outted" and is fair game. I've probably made a few bad calls over the years, no question. It's tough game to play in such a tight-knit region/community with a very finite amount of terrain.

just wanted to chime in with some knowledge here. BJ is one of my favorite areas to ski and I have ran into many problems where people don't know where the heck they are going back there. It annoys me when i'm in the middle of the woods, miles from anywhere, and having someone ask me directions. I have no problem with people skiing there, its public land, but for god sake people need to give more respect than timbuktu. many people go very ill prepared, with the wrong/lack of equipment, no direction ect.

people are constantly getting lost back there and rescues are made more often than not. BJ is somewhere where you need to know where you are going, yes its easy to find the trail head, but when decending the face its easy to get cliffed out or worse by going off the wrong side of the ridge into black falls wilderness. If you do decend the face successfully, then where do you go next at the base of the bowl? everything looks the same and the easy run out is very hard to find if you don't know where you are going. if you can't find the run out its a loooong bushwack back to the road if you are lucky enough to be going in the right direction and not towards hannah clark brook too far around the shoulder. these are just a few problems that need to be seriously assessed and recognized when doing this tour.

with all due respect to you and your job, I have read some of your articles on BC and I get the feeling that some areas such as big j don't get the respect it deserves. I get the impression that its a regular slackcountry run that is easy to navigate when its not at all. now thats just the feeling I get, I think about articles in magazines when someone asks me directions when their is no turning back, or hearing a story of someone spending $20,000 to get rescued in the middle of the night when its below zero. I know you have a job to do and you don't want to cross the fine line, I would just suggest adding more saftey info, but I would prefer if you didn't talk about off map stuff at all.

through the years I have definatly noticed more and more people skiing big j and competition for the prime lines is definatly getting stronger. this earth is becoming too populated to where there will naturally be more people in any area we don't need the supplement of articles, books ect. to aid in the ruining of BC/off map stashes.

I don't mean to come off as a d*ck at all, but its the way I feel and I know many others that feel the same way. just something to consider.

 

[pigfarmer]

Not sure what more to say at this point, except that ya'll have given me a lot to think about and that I will take it into consideration going forward.

That's not a promise that you're going to see drastic changes in the way we cover BC/OB terrain, at least not immediately. But your concerns definitely resonate with me and WILL filter up the ladder.

Thanks for the respectful discussion and please keep the feedback coming.

Three inches on the ground in northern VT this morn. It's a start.

Be well,
Ben Hewitt

 

[Greg]

Not sure what more to say at this point, except that ya'll have given me a lot to think about and that I will take it into consideration going forward.

That's not a promise that you're going to see drastic changes in the way we cover BC/OB terrain, at least not immediately. But your concerns definitely resonate with me and WILL filter up the ladder.

Thanks for the respectful discussion and please keep the feedback coming.

Three inches on the ground in northern VT this morn. It's a start.

Be well,
Ben Hewitt

Thanks for considering the feedback here. If you have other items and would like to "pick our brains" feel free to start a new thread. A real passionate group here...

 

[Marc]

Thanks for considering the feedback here. If you have other items and would like to "pick our brains" feel free to start a new thread. A real passionate group here...

Yeah... I saw a guy at work today with is finger so far up his nose I'm pretty sure he was picking his own brain...