Skiing Technique / Photo Critique Thread

[ctenidae]

My turn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMyhtF1PMQQ

From this Saturday at Burke on manmade corn.
I feel that I'm probably keeping my feet to close together.

Looks to me like you're in the back seat a bit, using your butt to push the skis through the turn. Do you feel like your feet are accelerating faster than your body? If so, lean forward a bit more.

 

[Deviations]

The Italian vids were great. The Italians always did ski with grace.

I just started skiing again after a 15 year layoff. I was a well versed expert back in the day (race, extreme, bumps), and am curious about why we should use a wider stance with shaped skis? If I didn't have problems before, will the shape induce problems in a narrow stance? Or, is a wider stance more forgiven by shaped skiis?

I looked at getting a "shaped" lesson, but the first couple of instructors really couldn't explain why I should change. I don't have my old 210 GS skis anymore, so shaped is a reality for me now.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Looks to me like you're in the back seat a bit, using your butt to push the skis through the turn. Do you feel like your feet are accelerating faster than your body? If so, lean forward a bit more.

Thanks!
Sometimes think I do get to much backward lean. At teh same time it makes skiing a boring, chopped up, corn groomer seem more interesting if I feel like my feet are going to go flying out from under me if I catch air on a roller. :grin:

 

[hrstrat57]

The Italian vids were great. The Italians always did ski with grace.

I just started skiing again after a 15 year layoff. I was a well versed expert back in the day (race, extreme, bumps), and am curious about why we should use a wider stance with shaped skis? If I didn't have problems before, will the shape induce problems in a narrow stance? Or, is a wider stance more forgiven by shaped skiis?

I looked at getting a "shaped" lesson, but the first couple of instructors really couldn't explain why I should change. I don't have my old 210 GS skis anymore, so shaped is a reality for me now.

also check out www.snowproab.com.

CSIA demo team vids...also free. I like free.

I jumped on supershort carving tech last year and found these videos priceless. I am a visual learner of course, doesn't work for everybody...but worked for me. I got just a wee bit of teaching skiing experience too, so I could see what was going on that was different than how I ski'd previously. Keep the up/ down to a minimum, engage the tips early, create angles and hang on for the ride. Let the extreme sidecut of the modern ski do most of the work.

The timing of the requisite moves is pretty clear, crystal I think in the Italian vids.

If it works for you great.....I like sharing.

Enjoy

 

[ctenidae]

Thanks!
Sometimes think I do get to much backward lean. At teh same time it makes skiing a boring, chopped up, corn groomer seem more interesting if I feel like my feet are going to go flying out from under me if I catch air on a roller. :grin:

True, true. It does get interesting. My Head Monsters punish me horribly if I even consider thinking about what it would be like to get close to the backseat.

 

[from_the_NEK]

True, true. It does get interesting. My Head Monsters punish me horribly if I even consider thinking about what it would be like to get close to the backseat.

I was skiing K2 Enemy (163cm) in that movie and I'm 6'4" with a size 13 foot. Getting into the back seat is quite easy with these skis. I have used them in a recreational NASTAR racing league and they can be very sketchy when I get into the back during a GS race. I have more than once just about gone over backward! Not a good way to improve my time ;-)

 

[riverc0il]

My turn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMyhtF1PMQQ

From this Saturday at Burke on manmade corn.
I feel that I'm probably keeping my feet to close together.

T, i have seen you rip some awesome turns and that vid doesn't do you justice, imo. i still can't believe how few years you have been skiing. definitely gotta spread those skis a little bit more into a more balanced stance. but i am sure you were just practicing your pow turns on the groomed burke doesn't look half bad all things considered!

 

[KevinF]

Yeah, I figured that. Today I pretty much just worked on leaning forward in my boot as much as possible through out the whole turn. And actually from doing that a bunch of other things clicked. I have still have to work on it a good amount more but I feel in around 5 days or so I should be pretty good (aka no more skid).

Is it just me or does forcing yourself to flex your boot as hard as possible eliminate 90% of your problems? I know for me it does.

I'm going to post my thoughts on your comments here. I am not an instructor, so take my comments for what they're worth.

If you are having to lean hard into the front of your boots, then there is something very wrong with how your boots are setup. I ski with just a touch of shin pressure in my boots in everything. Short turns, long turns, bumps, powder -- if I feel pressure building on my shins, I back off.

What's wrong with shin pressure, you ask? If you hit a bump, then the tip will rise. It has to; it has nowhere else to go but up. With you leaning forward (effectively driving the ski tip down at all times) -- well, something has to give. And that "something" is going to be your weight getting chucked into the back seat. Back seat driving going over the top of a bump equals big problems on the backside.

So what if you're just skiing groomers and have no interest in bumping? Ok, well, when you're faced with a situation where you want a shorter-radius turn then you can cleanly carve, you'll be forced to add some sort of skidding component to your turns. With excessive forward shin pressure gluing your ski tips to the snow, the only part of the ski that's available to skid is the tail. The tail sliding will take the tip with it, but it's still the tail that started sliding first. Sliding your tails around in heavy spring snow will kill your legs pretty quickly, as you are pushing a lot of snow with each and every turn. A tail-sliding ski is also devilishly hard to balance on. Contrast that with a more neutral stance where you can more easily steer the tips in -- that's a much more easily controlled skid, and far easier to balance over.

If you asked me at the start of last season I would have agreed 100% with everything you wrote above. 90% of problems fixed, and a little work would resolve the other 10%. Then one of my instructors finally convinced me that my boots just sucked and were totally working against me. I got new ones and the difference in every condition has been night-and-day. I worked with the same instructor again this past weekend, and he was astounded at the changes.

You currently have to lean forward to get the control you desire. If you were to back off the shin pressure with your current setup, you probably would have a large loss of control due to the total lack of tip pressure that would result. I'm just saying that you sound a lot like I did last year, and that there is a much, much more relaxing way to ski. i.e., just relaxed with your boots holding you in the right place. I can barely flex my boots, but I don't need to -- i.e., shin pressure has gone from something I wanted to maintain all the time (like you said) to something that I basically try to avoid (at least in extremes). Staying centered in my boots provides all the tip bite I need. No flexing cold plastic boots, no sliding tails around. Skiing has become more effortless then I ever thought it could be.

 

[riverc0il]

interesting post kevin. i wonder if perhaps it feels effortless because you have grown so accustomed to a certain pressure on the tongues of your boots? perhaps you no longer notice it? i agree that extreme pressure is not needed for your non-racing recreationalist, but i think there is something to be said for the control aspect of solid pressure on the tongue, most specifically for someone stuck in the back seat. if you are driving your heel into the pocket while simultaneously driving pressure onto the boot tongue, it is almost physically impossible to be in the back seat. you can't put pressure onto the tongue from the back seat. i think over emphasizing that forward lean is good in the short term to get more balanced as you certainly can not get balanced very well from the back side, but once you are forward, it is much more easy to pull off a big into a more balanced stance.

nothing wrong with having a skidding component to your turns. i think perhaps the difference would be starting with a skid versus finishing with a skid? the only true carve is on an open slope with radius turns and even then you still have a margin of skid. you can maintain good pressure on the tongue and good balance, the two do not cancel each other out. my forward pressure is directly related to the sweet spot on the ski, i drive the boot to drive that forward edge and tip of the ski in a precise way to create the type of turn i desire with varying degrees of follow through depending on desired speed, direction, etc. i don't think excessive force is required, but forward pressure is needed to drive the ski the way you want it, especially with more demanding skis. too much pressure is not required, obviously a skier shouldn't have shin pain from driving them forward. but i don't think forward pressure on the boot tongue and a centered and balanced stance are mutually exclusive. i suspect better for someone with back seat issues to over emphasize and back off once they get forward enough, but that is how i learned and it may not be the best approach. i am not an instructor either and can only speak for what works for me.

 

[bigbog]

......

Excellent post KevinF,
I am now a convert to the "Balance is the Key" way of thinking...no matter what level of forward-flex stiffness a boot has...as long as the skier is well-balanced in it.
A few instances of experiencing runs of extremely fun skiing....followed by the astonishing realization(sp?) of my AT boots being in Walk-Mode all along kind of made me realize that the boot's cuff was made to be used instead of being relied upon as a crutch for Balance. In addition, I think that this could also be a situation where more height, [larger musculature,]? & tibia leverage might also come into play...favoring a larger envelope for boot-tongue contact/resistance....? ...And I think Steve has pointed out the need for good boot FIT & binding (+/-) ramp in order to pressure the ski's shovel...particularly to be able to engage those edges rather rapidly when skiing the trees...as in his & Austin's videos.

 

[JimG.]

A few instances of experiencing runs of extremely fun skiing....followed by the astonishing realization(sp?) of my AT boots being in Walk-Mode all along kind of made me realize that the boot's cuff was made to be used instead of being relied upon as a crutch.

I start each ski day with my AT boots in walk mode, with my boots unbuckled.

Then I buckle them, and finally they go into ski mode. Takes about 3 runs.

If I'm really skiing well, I sometimes forget to put them into ski mode. Come to think of it, sometimes when I'm skiing really crappy I forget too.

In general, people rely on the leverage they get from their boot cuffs way too much.

 

[jack97]

Pressure in one thing but using them to as a crutch for balance is another, being center is the key. However, I see more skiers on the back seat w/o forward lean, like the vids of awf170 and nek.

How much pressure is a subjective. Not only is it related to boots but imo; ski stiffness and shape. Also where the hips are, if they are back you can overcompesate by pressing the shin hard. If the hips are forward, you can think that its too much pressure.

 

[awf170]

Wow, some pretty interesting replys. From my limited experiances so far I like to flex the boot, I don't want a cast around my ankle. Also, I really don't think I am slamming my ankle in the boot that hard, but it just feels that way because I was so used to skiing centered or backseated my whole life.

KevinF: I don't think I would ski glades, powder, and bumps like that, but to me it seems like it gives me the most control on groomers and in crud. Also, if keep a centered stance I feel like I go backseated even more. When I am centered any little bump will send me flying into the front of my boot, which will then cause me to push back to try to get centered again, causing me to finally end up way in the backseat. For powder, glades, and bumps a consisent forward pressure would be the best, IMO. If you hit a bump you still have room to go forward, but you still have enough pressure to initiate your turns.

How much pressure is a subjective. Not only is it related to boots but imo; ski stiffness and shape. Also where the hips are, if they are back you can overcompesate by pressing the shin hard. If the hips are forward, you can tink that its too much pressure.

Yeah, my skis could also have something to do with the forward pressure I need. If I didn't put a lot of force into my boots it just didn't feel like they would really carve a turn. Also, you make a good point about the hips. You pretty much always want your weight to stay centered, right? So if your butt is pretty far back then you can center yourself out by pushing into your boots, if you butt is forward then being centered in your boots will even you out. Personally for me putting my butt a little back, lower my center of gravity, then pushing hard into my boots felt best.

 

[JimG.]

Austin, I think what most folks are telling you is that it is most important for your body parts to be centered in an area that roughly approximates the length between your toe and heel pieces on your bindings. Any further back is the backseat and any further forward is too aggressive.

As for flex, all of it should be coming from your ankles and knees. The rest of your body should be tall and as upright as possible. It is quite acceptable to develop major flex in your ankles and knees without pitching forward beyond your toe piece. It's when you start bending at the waist that the problems start.

 

[jack97]

What Jim said...

In terms of shin pressure, the important thing is being aware of how you need to control the type of turns you want to do, "user mileage will vary".

 

[awf170]

Austin, I think what most folks are telling you is that it is most important for your body parts to be centered in an area that roughly approximates the length between your toe and heel pieces on your bindings. Any further back is the backseat and any further forward is too aggressive.

As for flex, all of it should be coming from your ankles and knees. The rest of your body should be tall and as upright as possible. It is quite acceptable to develop major flex in your ankles and knees without pitching forward beyond your toe piece. It's when you start bending at the waist that the problems start.

Thanks JimG, you rule. About the waist flex: that is pretty much how i flexed until about 5 ski days ago, such a horrible techinique but I just didn't know better (watch Steve's Jay Peak video, it shows this perfectly). I defiantly have to ski with you this year and get some tips. When are you heading up to Wildcat, Mt. Washington, and Cannon this year?

Also, these pictures Steve took of me at Stowe pretty much made it perfectly clear what I was doing so horribly wrong.

http://www.thesnowway.com/ski/2007/20061105stowe/20061105stowe05.jpg

http://www.thesnowway.com/ski/2007/20061105stowe/20061105stowe08.jpg

 

[JimG.]

Thanks JimG, you rule. About the waist flex: that is pretty much how i flexed until about 5 ski days ago, such a horrible techinique but I just didn't know better (watch Steve's Jay Peak video, it shows this perfectly). I defiantly have to ski with you this year and get some tips. When are you heading up to Wildcat, Mt. Washington, and Cannon this year?

Also, these pictures Steve took of me at Stowe pretty much made it perfectly clear what I was doing so horribly wrong.

http://www.thesnowway.com/ski/2007/20061105stowe/20061105stowe05.jpg

http://www.thesnowway.com/ski/2007/20061105stowe/20061105stowe08.jpg

First pic: definite waist bend. You're reaching out over your toe piece and to counter that you're sticking your butt way back. All it is going to take is one decent terrain variation to throw you down.

Second pic: Much better in the waist area, but too little knee flex and zero ankle flex. You're more upright, but you're in the backseat because you're not flexing your boots. No pressure on the tongue of the boot.

The ankle is the key balancing joint in skiing. Without flex there and some boot/shin contact, you're gonna get thrown around alot. Think about it this way...whatever angle your knee is flexed, your ankle should be equally flexed in the opposite direction. That's why old time Austrian instructors are always yelling "knees and ankles!".

I am looking to make a trip up to Wildcat/Mt. Washington sometime in mid-March this year. I'm looking for mid-winter conditions to check out the woods at Wildcat and to spend a few days skinning and skiing on Mt Washington.

 

[riverc0il]

nice comment jim about knees AND ankles, i never thought of it that way but it makes perfect sense and is sage advice.

 

[from_the_NEK]

T, i have seen you rip some awesome turns and that vid doesn't do you justice, imo. i still can't believe how few years you have been skiing. definitely gotta spread those skis a little bit more into a more balanced stance. but i am sure you were just practicing your pow turns on the groomed burke doesn't look half bad all things considered!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. However sometimes I do feel like I get back in the saddle a bit in variable/choppy conditions like Burke had on Saturday. Keeping my weight more forward and driving my tips down is something I definitely need to work on, especially in the bumps. :beer:

 

[bvibert]

Here's me at Hunter on Friday:

http://www.bvibert.com/skiing/vids/bvibert_hunter_121506.wmv

I'm pretty lame in the second half, the falling snowboarder and SOD threw me off a bit...