Snowmaking Pipe Bursts at Beech, Freezing Person to Lift

[kbroderick]

Between this, Magic and Wildcat having lift accidents, and the avalanche at Crystal, it seems like a lot more bad events are happening. Are we seeing an anomalous number of bad events or are they just being reported better?

Have to ask the insurance companies about frequency (and they're not talking), but I'm 100% sure stuff gets reported more now than it did 20-30 years ago. Some of the stuff that got talked about at the lodge and on the chairlift back then would be all over the internet today.

I'd guess most snowmaking failures tend to go without widespread note, as they usually don't involve creating geysers under operating ski lifts. That is most definitely a new one for me, and I have to admit that, had it happened 15 years ago while I was on patrol in Vermont, I'm not sure I'd have known who to radio to get the line shut down. It's definitely not something we ever covered in training.

Hypothetically, would opening more hydrants reduce the pressure at the failed one (until someone can shut the pumps or the line off)? That seems like just about the only thing someone on-site could possibly do without being able to contact the right people to shut things down.

 

[MadPadraic]

Have to ask the insurance companies about frequency (and they're not talking), but I'm 100% sure stuff gets reported more now than it did 20-30 years ago. Some of the stuff that got talked about at the lodge and on the chairlift back then would be all over the internet today.

I'd guess most snowmaking failures tend to go without widespread note, as they usually don't involve creating geysers under operating ski lifts. That is most definitely a new one for me, and I have to admit that, had it happened 15 years ago while I was on patrol in Vermont, I'm not sure I'd have known who to radio to get the line shut down. It's definitely not something we ever covered in training.

Hypothetically, would opening more hydrants reduce the pressure at the failed one (until someone can shut the pumps or the line off)? That seems like just about the only thing someone on-site could possibly do without being able to contact the right people to shut things down.

Yeah snowmaking failures vs failures that cause injuries are two different categories all together. It is the latter category (really dangerous stuff) which seems to be on the uptick.

Related question: how long do people hold safety incidents against resorts? I personally discount as time passes.

 

[drjeff]

Have to ask the insurance companies about frequency (and they're not talking), but I'm 100% sure stuff gets reported more now than it did 20-30 years ago. Some of the stuff that got talked about at the lodge and on the chairlift back then would be all over the internet today.

I'd guess most snowmaking failures tend to go without widespread note, as they usually don't involve creating geysers under operating ski lifts. That is most definitely a new one for me, and I have to admit that, had it happened 15 years ago while I was on patrol in Vermont, I'm not sure I'd have known who to radio to get the line shut down. It's definitely not something we ever covered in training.

Hypothetically, would opening more hydrants reduce the pressure at the failed one (until someone can shut the pumps or the line off)? That seems like just about the only thing someone on-site could possibly do without being able to contact the right people to shut things down.

Agree with the confusion about who to even raise on the radio, that isn't within their own team, to get a quick response, as most teams just communicate within their own team and very often on different channels than other teams use, so that they can effectively communicate within their own team and not have that channel filled with chatter from other mountain teams.

As for opening up additional hydrants on that line, probably wouldn't make a significant difference as most lines have enough pressure in them to be able to make snow along the entire length of that line at the same time, which requires the water in the line from top to bottom to be at a significant minimum pressure to get the desired output from the guns along the line. So unless the control room managing the water flowing through the line either does a hard shut down of the line, or diverts that water to a different line (which for the majority of snowmaking systems out there requires manually closing and opening of the valves at a pump/valve house up on the mountain) even with quick communications to the proper person on the proper team, it may very well be a few minutes until that line could of had its valve shut off and the pressurized wster within that line effectively bled off

 

[thetrailboss]

Between this, Magic and Wildcat having lift accidents, and the avalanche at Crystal, it seems like a lot more bad events are happening. Are we seeing an anomalous number of bad events or are they just being reported better?

I didn't hear about the avalanche at Crystal. This past weekend?

 

[IceEidolon]

...
Hypothetically, would opening more hydrants reduce the pressure at the failed one (until someone can shut the pumps or the line off)? That seems like just about the only thing someone on-site could possibly do without being able to contact the right people to shut things down.

Once the pumps are shut down, in theory yes. In practice, for anyone in this situation, don't try it - if the system isn't shut down, you won't help anything, you'll make a second ice/slush area, and could get hurt/wet yourself.

I've drained lines via hydrant, it can take 20 minutes or more with three hydrants wide open depending on where you are on the hill.

 

[MadPadraic]

I didn't hear about the avalanche at Crystal. This past weekend?

Mid-December. However, i just reread the stories on this, and it isn't clear if they were in bounds or out of bounds.
https://www.columbian.com/news/2021/dec/11/avalanche-at-crystal-mountain-ski-area-kills-man-60/

 

[thetrailboss]

Mid-December. However, i just reread the stories on this, and it isn't clear if they were in bounds or out of bounds.
https://www.columbian.com/news/2021/dec/11/avalanche-at-crystal-mountain-ski-area-kills-man-60/

Yeah sounds like it was out of bounds. We have had terrible Avi conditions out here the last couple weeks. FORTUNATELY we have not had any deaths in Utah at least. I know of a few in Idaho and Colorado.

 

[djd66]

Agree with the confusion about who to even raise on the radio, that isn't within their own team, to get a quick response, as most teams just communicate within their own team and very often on different channels than other teams use, so that they can effectively communicate within their own team and not have that channel filled with chatter from other mountain teams.

Not sure how that mtn opperates, but this is how it should have gone as soon as the ski patrol showed up. ( I assume they use radios and have a base dispatcher)
1) ski patrol to base,….. base go ahead
2) I am on XYZ TRAIL. We have a major snowmaking mishap and lift emergency. Please call the lift XYZ and tell them to move the lift line about 10’ and no further! Tell them to shut the lift off until further instructions Please send additional patrol with lift evac equipment. Please call snow making and tell them to shut off the pumps.

 

[Newpylong]

Agree with the confusion about who to even raise on the radio, that isn't within their own team, to get a quick response, as most teams just communicate within their own team and very often on different channels than other teams use, so that they can effectively communicate within their own team and not have that channel filled with chatter from other mountain teams.

As for opening up additional hydrants on that line, probably wouldn't make a significant difference as most lines have enough pressure in them to be able to make snow along the entire length of that line at the same time, which requires the water in the line from top to bottom to be at a significant minimum pressure to get the desired output from the guns along the line. So unless the control room managing the water flowing through the line either does a hard shut down of the line, or diverts that water to a different line (which for the majority of snowmaking systems out there requires manually closing and opening of the valves at a pump/valve house up on the mountain) even with quick communications to the proper person on the proper team, it may very well be a few minutes until that line could of had its valve shut off and the pressurized wster within that line effectively bled off

Pretty much! It's more a question of volume than pressure. A 1 1/2" camlock on a hydrant wide open will pass roughly 150 GPM of water through it, so if that pipe is a main upline or feed and they're moving a couple of thousand GPM through it, as you can tell it would take quite a few of them wide open to make any difference. Would create many issues vs one. Really you have to isolate the line if you can or shut the pumps down if that's the only line charged.

Someone trying to hold a tower pad or anything else on top is going to get thrown and injured. Water is incredibly powerful at operating pressure. I've seen holes blow through the sides of valve hoses, 20 foot sections of victaulic pipe thrown across the trail like lincoln logs etc. Scary stuff.

 

[catskillman]

several years ago at Hunter the double on the west side had a chair that the weld broke on. There was a couple on the chair, and the guy held the overhead side bar down to keep the chair together. Took forever but he held on and ski patrol got them off safetly. Chair never ran again and the couple settled for big $ and are no longer allowed to ski there.

 

[ThatGuy]

several years ago at Hunter the double on the west side had a chair that the weld broke on. There was a couple on the chair, and the guy held the overhead side bar down to keep the chair together. Took forever but he held on and ski patrol got them off safetly. Chair never ran again and the couple settled for big $ and are no longer allowed to ski there.

Sounds like a win-win, big $ and you never have to ski Hunter again

 

[njdiver85]

Having watched the longer version of the video, is there a lift maintenance person there and if so what were they thinking. If he/she was, why are they not radioing down to the lift operator to move the lift a little to get the skier out of the stream? Bet this will all come down to ski area not paying enough to be able to hire highly qualified experienced staff. At the very least, drive a damn snowmobile over the geyser to redirect the flow.

 

[thetrailboss]

Why did nobody tell folks to stay in the chairs and not jump? And the woman in this video was blown out of her chair by the water (at least that is what it sounds like).

Pipe bursts under lift, blasting skiers with freezing-cold water in 7-degree weather at NC resort

The skiers were blasted with freezing cold water in 7-degree weather at Beech Mountain Resort in Avery County, North Carolina.

abc13.com

 

[Keelhauled]

Not sure how that mtn opperates, but this is how it should have gone as soon as the ski patrol showed up. ( I assume they use radios and have a base dispatcher)
1) ski patrol to base,….. base go ahead
2) I am on XYZ TRAIL. We have a major snowmaking mishap and lift emergency. Please call the lift XYZ and tell them to move the lift line about 10’ and no further! Tell them to shut the lift off until further instructions Please send additional patrol with lift evac equipment. Please call snow making and tell them to shut off the pumps.

I wouldn't count on there being a base dispatcher. The radio system should support making an emergency call across all channels, though.

 

[MadPadraic]

several years ago at Hunter the double on the west side had a chair that the weld broke on. There was a couple on the chair, and the guy held the overhead side bar down to keep the chair together. Took forever but he held on and ski patrol got them off safetly. Chair never ran again and the couple settled for big $ and are no longer allowed to ski there.

Banning them from skiing there seems rather bizarre.

 

[djd66]

If you watch the full video - at 3:01 - the personal is literally hanging off the chair about to fall and the idiot ski patroller is just doing absolutely nothing. Even worse, then he walks down the hill away from the person in most danger. Completely incompetent.

 

[MadPadraic]

If you watch the full video - at 3:01 - the personal is literally hanging off the chair about to fall and the idiot ski patroller is just doing absolutely nothing. Even worse, then he walks down the hill away from the person in most danger. Completely incompetent.

What should they have done to help the person? Radioing for help seems like the best strategy as well as staying by to provide aid if the person falls.

Also--based on how they were fighting with their radio I interpreted that as they couldn't be heard over the rushing water and were trying to get enough distance so that they could communicate. Perhaps my interpretation is overly generous, but maybe yours is overly harsh? i'm glad I've never been in that situation.

 

[tumbler]

Lift ops do not have radios unless there is a coordinator or supervisor that happens to be at the lift. They communicate by telephone. Assuming this place has a decent radio system, you radio the dispatch that has all the frequencies and they call the snowmaking plant to shut down the pumps. AS bad as this was, it is not a "usual" type incident that people train for so I cannot completely pile on that they are totally incompetent, just slighty

 

[Edd]

Please never let me have a bad day at work during which someone films it and puts it on the internet.

 

[Newpylong]

Lift ops do not have radios unless there is a coordinator or supervisor that happens to be at the lift. They communicate by telephone. Assuming this place has a decent radio system, you radio the dispatch that has all the frequencies and they call the snowmaking plant to shut down the pumps. AS bad as this was, it is not a "usual" type incident that people train for so I cannot completely pile on that they are totally incompetent, just slighty

Supposed to have a backup communication device per code in the event the hard line fails on the lift. Usually there is at least one radio at top and bottom.