Terminal Intermediate?

[crank]

I couldn't disagree more with all of this. Bode not having good Technique? Intermediates who fall apart in steeper terrain don't have good technique. I don't recall ever seeing an intermediate that truly understood and knew how to make a good turn. If they did, they wouldn't be intermediates. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But this is no longer splitting hairs, IMO.

Did I say Bode doesn't have good technique? No. And if I implied that it was not intentional. What I said was that coaches wanted to CHANGE his technique. Technique can be a subjective thing. Balance cannot. Different strokes for different folks and all that. Intermediates who fall apart on steeper terrain lack balance and experience....OK , technique too. Having said that, there is too much emphasis placed on technique.

One of the things I love about skiing is the individualism and self expression of the sport. For instance, I love to bank turns. I know it's crappy technique. I know I'm occasionally gonna slide out. I do it anyway because it's fun and I like the way it feels.

 

[mattchuck2]

How is balancing on intermediate terrain different than balancing on steeper terrain? What changes besides the pitch of the terrain?

People's confidence.

When terrain gets steep, people have a tendency to try to get closer to the slope (possibly to minimize the distance that they'd fall in the event of a crash). The problem is, in order to progress as a skier, people need to get away from the mountain, not closer to it. If you think about center of mass movement on a flat slope and a steep slope, the distance between the center of mass and the snow surface should be the same regardless of pitch. It's easy for most skiers to keep this distance on a flatter slope, but on a steeper slope, you actually have to "put yourself out there."

A lot of skiers aren't willing to do this.

 

[crank]

People's confidence.

When terrain gets steep, people have a tendency to try to get closer to the slope (possibly to minimize the distance that they'd fall in the event of a crash). The problem is, in order to progress as a skier, people need to get away from the mountain, not closer to it. If you think about center of mass movement on a flat slope and a steep slope, the distance between the center of mass and the snow surface should be the same regardless of pitch. It's easy for most skiers to keep this distance on a flatter slope, but on a steeper slope, you actually have to "put yourself out there."

A lot of skiers aren't willing to do this.

Exactly.

 

[tjf67]

Been to Jeff Bokum so I think the alignment stuff is set. Only problem is that there are times when I feel like my boots (Tecnicas) have a lot of forward lean. Not sure if I'm overcompensating there and ending up in the backseat, but it's something I'm aware of.

Lots of stuff here about balance and technique...guessing a lot of both is important unless one is athletic enough to make up for it, which I definitely am not.

Thing I do to help intermediates become apt to ski anywhere. First thing I look for are where are the arms. EVERY TIME they are back seat there arms are behind them. I take them to a spot on the hill and then have them make turns down a straight line without crossing over the outer lines five feet on either side. They put there arms out in front and keep turning. It gets to the point that they are barely going fast enough to initiate the turn. When they can do that I take them to steep terrain. Have them do the same drill. If they screw up I ask them to remember where there arms are. 100% of the time they are behind them. Next time you are back seat think about where your arms are and drive them out to the front. If your arms are out front it is very hard not to set an edge.
Once you are confident about being able to control speed on steeps then you can open it up a little keeping the same technique. If you find yourself losing control think abut where your arms are and get them out front.

Same goes for when you are in the air. Push the arms out.

BUMBERS do it different so dont confuse the two. Neither is better.

 

[SkiFanE]

A little nervous about jumping into such a heated thread lol..but why not?!

I'm an expert female, started skiing when I was 5yo...so I really don't know 'how' to ski and can't teach anyone, but I can rip it up quite nicely. I would spend 100% of my time in bumps if I could.

My simple advice:

1 - Strength. Cannot underestimate the strength you need to be expert. When you set your skis downhill you need 100% faith in your equipment, skills and body. You have to avoid rocks, sticks and snowmaking crap in a split second continually during this early season - each of them would have sent my crashing, but I could use my strength to recover from all of them. Workout, walk, run, do other sports...but get strong. Otherwise the hill owns you, not matter what and then you'll get scared..segue into #2...
2 - Forget fear. Hard to do, but when you send your skis downhill, forget it and just do what you need to, or else you lose focus on skills.
3 - Stance/balance. If you don't have the correct stance for EVERY kind of condition, you won't get far. Before every run I sorta jump up a little in my skis, rearrange my posture/back, get into position and let 'em run (you get slouchy and lazy on the lift ride, IMO, need to reset). Every condition calls for something different, and even from top to bottom of run could be different. If you don't switch it up for conditions, you won't progress. This means I may have to stop mid-run and gather myself and start again - I hate skiing out of control, but I will if my stance/balance is not right.

Also..not sure this is advice, but I know experts will weigh in..but these 'all mt cruiser' skis are real hard to get to do much but cruise. I've switched to a used pair of SL skis and love them...have NO problem on crust/ice and are great in the bumps that have crust/ice between them. My last couple pairs of stick skis were SL but when I got shaped skis I went to cruisers...after 2 pairs I switched back to SL and love them.

 

[ToddW]

Great observations here. I have never read this book (nor any ski technique book for that matter). But I think Harb would be doing his readers a disservice if he is suggesting skiers just learn how to make perfect carves relying exclusively on setting the edge, pressuring the ski, and going along for the ride.

Rotary input is indeed important. Exclusive control of the skis without rotary is difficult to do at all times unless you have a wide open slope with no obstacles, other skiers, changing terrain, etc. I shoot for this type of turn. I've lost my touch since skiing trees and bumps and powder became my major focus. It feels really nice when you can whip your skis around in tight arcs without any rotary or speed scrubbing skid motions. But that is difficult to do exclusively and I don't think should be an ultimate of a technique book geared towards developing or intermediate skiers.

Harb doesn't teaching riding the sidecut and he focuses more on non-carved "bulletproof short turns" for all-mountain skiing than on carved turns. But he teaches that the same 5 essential movements lead to both types of turns.

He does teach skiers to avoid active (deliberate) rotary input. Yes, in bumps too! There do exist residual "passive" rotary torques due to the interaction of tipping skis onto edge and the construction of the lower body. He teaches "counteracting movements" to cancel out this passive rotation during transition to provide crisp, precise transitions especially on ice. If one follows his approach, it is surprisingly easy to ski without deliberate rotary input ... a plus in 3-D snow and also on firm conditions like the aftermath of the past two weeks' r*instorms in Vermont.

His approach and standard on-the-hill PSIA instruction are like oil and water -- they don't mix very well. Harb's focused on getting dedicated skiers to very high levels of performance. On-hill ski schools have an hour or two to get people moving conservatively on the hill without getting injured and a majority of their instructors don't have the opportunity to see the same student twice. And their higher level classes assume the legacy of their lower level classes. Two different goals, two different approaches. Oil and water.

If you're curious, Harb has several short instructional videos on youtube (search for skiwhh on youtube), several full length DVDs, and a couple of technique books. Adopting his approach will require that you rebuild your skiing from the ground up to establish a bulletproof foundation. For the true skiing addict, this is a small price to pay for the outcome. Besides, the journey's fun. If it doesn't sound like your cup of tea, have fun on the slopes doing your own thing.

 

[gmcunni]

i think i'm going to take a lesson this season.

 

[4aprice]

:grin:

I'm an expert female, started skiing when I was 5yo...so I really don't know 'how' to ski and can't teach anyone, but I can rip it up quite nicely. I would spend 100% of my time in bumps if I could..

Man if I was single I would be in love. Love hearing a woman talk that way8)

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

PS: I love my wife

 

[2knees]

Thing I do to help intermediates become apt to ski anywhere.....

Point them in the direction of the ski school and walk away.

 

[mister moose]

I'm an expert female, started skiing when I was 5yo...

Man if I was single I would be in love. Love hearing a woman talk that way8)

I notice she said she's an expert female, not an expert skier. not that that's a bad thing either....:wink:

Also..not sure this is advice, but I know experts will weigh in..but these 'all mt cruiser' skis are real hard to get to do much but cruise. I've switched to a used pair of SL skis and love them...have NO problem on crust/ice and are great in the bumps that have crust/ice between them. My last couple pairs of stick skis were SL but when I got shaped skis I went to cruisers...after 2 pairs I switched back to SL and love them.

I've found I like to have a softer mid fat, a stiff ice skate, a wider wet powder/slush ski, and a carving ski. My "all mountains" are gathering dust.

 

[SkiFanE]

I notice she said she's an expert female, not an expert skier. not that that's a bad thing either....:wink:



I've found I like to have a softer mid fat, a stiff ice skate, a wider wet powder/slush ski, and a carving ski. My "all mountains" are gathering dust.

Problem with quoting, sorry.

I'm an expert female skier Met my hubby who started skiing at 3yo and we didn't even ski together for a couple years (poor college students). Except when he ditches me for the steep woods, we are 100% compatible skiers, like the same stuff and are same speed. Match made in ski heaven

I am a one quiver skier, but do want to get a wider ski for powder - tried hubby's mid-fats last winter with 12" of powder and loved them...but once it got bumped up wanted to go back to my SLs. He got demo bindings on them so we could "share", but only when he skips a pow day (rarely) - so I want my own.

 

[jrmagic]

...but once it got bumped up wanted to go back to my SLs.

Probably my favorite pair of skis since shaped skis came out were my Atomic SL11s. Those things were beasts that could rail even the hardest snow with ease and of course were ultra quick.

 

[SkiFanE]

I notice she said she's an expert female, not an expert skier. not that that's a bad thing either....:wink:



I've found I like to have a softer mid fat, a stiff ice skate, a wider wet powder/slush ski, and a carving ski. My "all mountains" are gathering dust.

Probably my favorite pair of skis since shaped skis came out were my Atomic SL11s. Those things were beasts that could rail even the hardest snow with ease and of course were ultra quick.

Last year I grabbed a pair of little-used Head SL skis that we bought used for my teen and were gathering dust (don't remember the model). Went from 163 volkls to 155 SLs and will stick with SLs. Need another used/cheap pair, as I bent (or rockered ha ha) these Heads in the bumps last spring..but still working just fine. I was pleasantly surprised that they held edge on ice as well as my volkls. The only big issue is it's harder to scrub speed with them, if needed, w/o leaving the bump run.

 

[bigbog]

Been to Jeff Bokum so I think the alignment stuff is set. Only problem is that there are times when I feel like my boots (Tecnicas) have a lot of forward lean. Not sure if I'm overcompensating there and ending up in the backseat, but it's something I'm aware of.

Lots of stuff here about balance and technique...guessing a lot of both is important unless one is athletic enough to make up for it, which I definitely am not.

Oh Yeah Hammer!! Without a doubt...if that forward lean is excessive for our physical makeup = leaNing back onto the back of the cuff = pressuring tail of ski...not to mention your hurtin' quads! Other guys may have a trick or two to at least survive for a day....