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Terry Schiavo - RIP

How Would You Have Handled This?

  • Let her die in peace - the gov't has no place interfering

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Laws need to be enacted to protect people against this

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Religious law should be the final word

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other - elaborate below

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

ctenidae

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You can't wipe every last taint of religion off of any laws, simply because at base, they're for the same thing- whether laws or scripture, they're a framework for behavior created by society. Work any law down far enough, and you can find some scrupture that covers it. Spiritual religion is, IMO, on its way out. In the next hundred years or so, I think you'll see the vast majority of western religious institutions dry up, as science becomes the new religion. Even then, science will provide a basic behavorial framework. Rule of Law, guided by scientific principles, rather than religious ones. The advantage, in my mind, is a reliance on observable, quantifiable events, rather than articles of faith open to a huge variety of interpretation. We'll see.

As to the argument against arguing about the past- it very much impacts the future. If the federal government continues under the assumption that it can (or should) govern on an individual level, then we're all doomed, no matter if it works on a theocratical or humanistic basis. That's the real problem, as I see it, in the Schiavo case. The Supreme Court failed in its duties when it didn't immediately reject the case and return it to the Appeals Court. Congress failed us when it decided to call hearings on the matter. It's not a Federal issue, and it shouldn't be. Laws are pretty clear on who has authority- a spouse is always considered next-of-kin, unless found mentally incompetent. Case closed, as the Florida courts ruled. You start changing the laws around that, and you open a can of worms. If the spouse isn't responsible, who is? The parents? What if they're dead? It doesn't take long before you decide the state is responsible, even over a competent spouse. If the states have to take responsibility, how big a leap is it for the State to take it? It's a bad precedent to set, and, I fear, not the last we'll see of the issue.
 

dmc

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Jaime86 said:
Screw Texas law...they had no right...to take that boys tube out...whether or not he was dying anyway...as long as the mother said no...they should not have had a say in the matter...none whatsoever!

Terri's case got press because her parents have money.. And it happend in Florida where GWB has a tool for a brother...

Hudson's case got no press because his mother is poor..

Remember... The meak shall inherit the earth...
Religion is too busy pushing agendas to take care of the people that don't have $$$...
 

dmc

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ctenidae said:
You can't wipe every last taint of religion off of any laws, simply because at base, they're for the same thing- whether laws or scripture, they're a framework for behavior created by society.

I agree...
I may not be religious but I respect people and beliefs...
 

hammer

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flatlands of Mass.
Jaime86 said:
Religion should not be a part of government but it is and more than likely always will be.
I agree...complete separation of government from religious beliefs will not happen. The problem today, however, is that the current leadership is pandering to the religious groups that voted them into office.

Jaime86 said:
For example...when the government had the ten comandments taken out from in front of the court. They had no right stepping in on that.
Who had no right stepping in on that? The courts?
If you have a problem with that, then I'd suggest you write to your Congressman or Senator to have the First Amendment to the Constitution (and it's historical interpretations) revised.

Jaime86 said:
Just because you choose a different way to live your life doesn't mean that you have to impose on everyone else's.
I think that's what dmc's point was...do you agree with that, then?

Jaime86 said:
I thought we had a big thing about seperation of church and state...doesn't look that way to me. Not in the slightest.
Unfortunately, nope...

BTW, Jaime86, keep posting...you do have some good points (even if some of us don't entierly agree :))
 

ctenidae

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Jaime86- removing the ten commandments from the courthouse was an excercise in seperating Church and State. You can't have people going in to a Court of Law, passing by a religious work like that. What if they're Muslim (or Buddhist, or Shinto, or whatever), do you think they'll believe they're getting a fair trial if they have to walk by the guiding principles of Christianity to get to court? People have to firmly beleive in the justice of the courts and the laws for them to be in any way effective. Anything that erodes that trust on a religious basis has to be removed from the system.
 

dmc

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hammer said:
BTW, Jaime86, keep posting...you do have some good points (even if some of us don't entierly agree :))

Conservative College kids are my favorite debate fodder!

I agree... Good debate... Crappy subject but good debate...
 
J

Jaime86

Guest
Yes Hudson's case got no publicity but do you notice how whenever somehting new arrives...it's shown but once...and then if something of the same magnitude happens again, nothing is said...the media pays a HUGE part in this whole thing. If it weren't for the media, we never would have had protesters everywhere protesting having her tube removed in the first place...what was said would have been final...but since there was such a controversy...the media had to make a big point in making it a huge story...
 

ctenidae

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In a way, it's good the Schiavo casse got such huge publicity. Hopefully it identified the religious panderers, and pissed off a few people who otherwise wouldn't have voted in their next Congressional election, or in 2008.
 

dmc

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Jaime86 said:
Yes Hudson's case got no publicity but do you notice how whenever somehting new arrives...it's shown but once...and then if something of the same magnitude happens again, nothing is said...the media pays a HUGE part in this whole thing. If it weren't for the media, we never would have had protesters everywhere protesting having her tube removed in the first place...what was said would have been final...but since there was such a controversy...the media had to make a big point in making it a huge story...

It got no publicity because they are poor and not in a state where the leaders are all suckeling off the conservative agenda...

Funny thing is... If you do a google news search a lot of the stories about the Hudson case have been removed... Gee I wonder by who....??

I first heard the story about Hudson on NPR... I never saw anytrhing about it on Fox News.. :)
 
J

Jaime86

Guest
ctenidae said:
Jaime86- removing the ten commandments from the courthouse was an excercise in seperating Church and State. You can't have people going in to a Court of Law, passing by a religious work like that. What if they're Muslim (or Buddhist, or Shinto, or whatever), do you think they'll believe they're getting a fair trial if they have to walk by the guiding principles of Christianity to get to court? People have to firmly beleive in the justice of the courts and the laws for them to be in any way effective. Anything that erodes that trust on a religious basis has to be removed from the system.

What's the big deal though...honestly...this country formed on Christianity...why are we now not permitted to continue living by it. "In God We Trust"--that whole controversy is BOGUS...those words were put on and in things for a reason...because when this country first became such...that's how and what people believed. Yes, the economy and the country has grown into great proportion...but maybe we all need to just go back and take a look at the whole meaning behind how and why we're here. For freedom of religion...
 

dmc

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ctenidae said:
In a way, it's good the Schiavo casse got such huge publicity. Hopefully it identified the religious panderers, and pissed off a few people who otherwise wouldn't have voted in their next Congressional election, or in 2008.

I wonder if the timing of Eric Rudolphs plea bargin was for the religious right to show that they are not as bad as people think.... As bad as him that is...
 

dmc

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Jaime86 said:
ctenidae said:
Jaime86- removing the ten commandments from the courthouse was an excercise in seperating Church and State. You can't have people going in to a Court of Law, passing by a religious work like that. What if they're Muslim (or Buddhist, or Shinto, or whatever), do you think they'll believe they're getting a fair trial if they have to walk by the guiding principles of Christianity to get to court? People have to firmly beleive in the justice of the courts and the laws for them to be in any way effective. Anything that erodes that trust on a religious basis has to be removed from the system.


What's the big deal though...honestly...this country formed on Christianity...why are we now not permitted to continue living by it. "In God We Trust"--that whole controversy is BOGUS...those words were put on and in things for a reason...because when this country first became such...that's how and what people believed. Yes, the economy and the country has grown into great proportion...but maybe we all need to just go back and take a look at the whole meaning behind how and why we're here. For freedom of religion...
I was against the removal of the ten commandments..
It really if a historical document that lot's of our beliefs come from...
I don't think it was meant to throw you in jail if you don't honor your mother or father... :)
 
J

Jaime86

Guest
dmc said:
It got no publicity because they are poor and not in a state where the leaders are all suckeling off the conservative agenda...

Funny thing is... If you do a google news search a lot of the stories about the Hudson case have been removed... Gee I wonder by who....??

I first heard the story about Hudson on NPR... I never saw anytrhing about it on Fox News.. :)

Of course it got no publicity because as you have said...they are poor! Poor people in the US are overlooked when in reality...sometimes they know more of what is going wrong than the well off people.
 
J

Jaime86

Guest
I am done for today guys...miss me...enjoy arguing...I got class! Buh bye...very nice debates...thanks! -Jaime86-
 

ctenidae

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I think it's the first four commandments that that cause the problems. Well, first four in the original Hebrew commandments, first 3 in the King James version....
 

dmc

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ctenidae said:
I think it's the first four commandments that that cause the problems. Well, first four in the original Hebrew commandments, first 3 in the King James version....

Remember Moses in Mel Brooks "The History Of The World" movie..

Holds up three tablets..
"I give you the 15"
One table drops and smashes
"the 10 Commandments"
 

BeanoNYC

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dmc said:
Holds up three tablets..
"I give you the 15"
One table drops and smashes
"the 10 Commandments"

Count De Money: "You look like the piss boy"
King Louis: "and you look like a bucket of sh*t!"

Miriam: "But Sire, I just simply don't do it"
King Louis: "Birds do it. Bee's do it. I just did it, and I'm ready to do it again!"
 

ctenidae

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It's good to be the King.

"Hey, Torquemada, what do you say?"
"I just got back from the auto de fe!"
"Auto de fe, what's the auto de fe?"
"It's what you oughtn't to do, but you do anyway!"
 
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